On May 7, 2007, at 5:20 PM, John Howell wrote:
I would never accuse Mark of doing this deliberately, because I
don't believe he would ever do so, but in the message below he
carried what I actually said to a "reductio ad absurdam," setting
up a sort of straw man,
I never meant to set up
Couldn't get back on this right away--in the middle of final exams,
grading papers, etc.
I would never accuse Mark of doing this deliberately, because I don't
believe he would ever do so, but in the message below he carried what
I actually said to a "reductio ad absurdam," setting up a sort of
On May 6, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
it's always possible to make your score even more precise. You can
give an exact metronome mark for every change of tempo, including
every ritard. You can litter the score with dynamic markings, at the
top and bottom of every hairpin. You ca
On May 6, 2007, at 8:12 PM, Linda Worsley wrote:
Maybe not, in American English, but writing "fi-re" encourages a
really gross pronunciation with the ugly "YUR" emphasized at the end.
Ah, this is a very important point. Colloquial pronunciation is
NEVER incorrect
True. And ugly isn't i
Christopher Smith wrote:
On May 6, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
You can litter the score with dynamic markings, at the top and bottom
of every hairpin.
Hmm, I've been doing that lately, partially to keep one of the trumpet
players in my brass quintet from eating up rehearsal time by
On May 6, 2007, at 11:15 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
But sometimes, you want the players to work it out for themselves.
It's like, "C'mon, you guys -- you're all good musicians. I
shouldn't have to hold your hand every step of the way. Use your
ears and use your judgement. If there's a di
Well, if a hairpin absolutely has to end in f and not ff every time,
obviously you need to specify that.
But sometimes, you want the players to work it out for themselves.
It's like, "C'mon, you guys -- you're all good musicians. I shouldn't
have to hold your hand every step of the way. Use
On May 6, 2007, at 11:47 PM, Mark D Lew wrote:
You can litter the score with dynamic markings, at the top and
bottom of every hairpin.
Hmm, I've been doing that lately, partially to keep one of the
trumpet players in my brass quintet from eating up rehearsal time by
asking "What's the end
On May 6, 2007, at 7:44 PM, John Howell wrote:
When it's a question of ensemble stylization, perhaps we do
disagree. If there's one principle I think most on this list agree
on, it's that unless an aleatoric approach is part of the concept,
the notation should be as exact and unambiguous a
On 06 May 2007, at 11:37 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote:
Yes, you could maybe hyphenate it "ted-'ous"
Er, make that "te-d'ous". Still unclear.
Cheers,
- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY
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I just thought of another one -- from the spiritual "Walk With Me,
Lord":
te-dious
Yes, you could maybe hyphenate it "ted-'ous", but Andrew's right that
the apostrophe actually makes the pronunciation *less* clear than
simply "te-dious".
Cheers,
- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn,
At 7:11 PM -0700 5/6/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Whether singing solo or chorus, the same artistic decisions are
there to be made. The only difference is who is the artist making
the decision? With a chorus you'll typically have a choral
director. He or she will make the decision and pass on instr
On May 6, 2007, at 2:48 PM, John Howell wrote:
I have a feeling, Mark, that in your mind you are thinking solo
singers, while in mine I am thinking ensemble singers. A great
deal should be left to an (experienced!) solo vocalist's
discretion, but a great deal absolutely has to be indicate
At 12:36 AM -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
For this particular song, my personal choice would be to sing it
like "fye-er". I think it's what the composer intended, and it's
consistent with the style in which I would sing this song,
I disagree (though not very strongly). The reason is
At 12:36 AM -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
In other examples where two or more notes are slurred over a single
syllable of "fire", it does feel natural to make the first syllable
"fye" and sing a sustained "er" over the second (so that it rhymes
with "buyer"). An example of this is the fir
On May 1, 2007, at 8:18 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
When I speak, I also say, "eye-urn." I would direct my choir to
sing, "ah-ih-ruhn." The difference being the treatment of the
diphthong on the first syllable. I think I picked that mode up from
Shaw, as a part of his (and mine) never-en
Man, I've tried saying "comfortable" several times, and I always get
4 syllables. Sorry.
Dean
On May 1, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you
I would respectfully disagree. The sound (sans the "r") Marshall does
in fact espouse, the [3], when sung by any culture, if it is pure, to
my ear does not sound British or affected. I've listened really
carefully to my choirs and other American choirs sing most all styles
of music, and whe
With three syllables I'm afraid I would pronounce that as comf'-ta-ble. (And
I am more comfortable using the apostrophe in this instance).
John R
On 5/1/07 4:13 PM, "Andrew Stiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
>
>>
>> At 00:36 -070
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in
the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate
that?
com-forta-ble. Similarly with "Wednes-day" and so
On May 1, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Ken Moore wrote:
Does anyone else out there say "eye-ruhn"?
I don't know about that, but I was startled to hear the first D in
"Wednesday" pronounced by whatever famous actress it was that did the
voiceover in that movie about the guy who discovers he's a char
On Apr 30, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.
Dean
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3]
by analogy with other standard English words. Otherw
On 1-May-07, at 1:05 PM, John Howell wrote:
I think part of the problem is that when people think of singing an
"r," they automatically think of the hard Canadian or upper
Midwestern "r," which is very tense and blocks the sound with a
raised middle of the tongue. And then they demonstr
At 8:08 PM -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3]
by analogy with other standard English words. Otherwise I can't
tell what you're suggesting.
Well if you don't know IPA you probabl
A good point, with which I concur most ha-tih-lee.
Dean
On May 1, 2007, at 1:15 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:
On Apr 30, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
I would and do ask for that vowel even if we aren't doing G&S, or
whatever. It just sings well to eliminate the "r", and to my
Americ
When I speak, I also say, "eye-urn." I would direct my choir to
sing, "ah-ih-ruhn." The difference being the treatment of the
diphthong on the first syllable. I think I picked that mode up from
Shaw, as a part of his (and mine) never-ending battle to exhort
choirs to differentiate between
Mark D Lew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Side note: Personally, I pronounce "i-ron" like
"eye-ruhn" even in ordinary speech, and it is a
source of ongoing amusement to my wife to point out
that everyone else in the world says "eye-urn".
Surely I'm not the only one. Does anyone else out
there
On Apr 30, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
I would and do ask for that vowel even if we aren't doing G&S, or
whatever. It just sings well to eliminate the "r", and to my
American ear, does not sound at all affected, unless you speak it,
not sing it. If one is doing Sprectstimme
I would and do ask for that vowel even if we aren't doing G&S, or
whatever. It just sings well to eliminate the "r", and to my American
ear, does not sound at all affected, unless you speak it, not sing
it. If one is doing Sprectstimme (sp?) with English, then I don't
know what approach wo
Not if you pronounce it "L[3]n." Which is what Marshall is suggesting.
Dean
On Apr 30, 2007, at 7:12 PM, John Howell wrote:
But that IS r-as-a-vowel!
John
At 2:02 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.
Dean
On Apr 30, 20
On Apr 29, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
This is probably gonna start a religious war, but I would like to
read the members' opinions about hyphenating text underlay. [...]
Not so much a religious war as a theological debate, I'd say.
mdl
___
On Apr 30, 2007, at 3:11 PM, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote:
Well, OK, my thoughts on this are that hyphenation should follow
how the music is sung, i.e. with each note beginning with a
consonant, and multi-consonants split. "pro-mise" not "prom-ise".
This approach stems from my time
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3]
by analogy with other standard English words. Otherwise I can't
tell what you're suggesting.
Well if you don't know IPA you probably also won't know what it means
if I say
At 7:54 PM -0400 4/30/07, David W. Fenton wrote:
On 30 Apr 2007 at 15:40, John Howell wrote:
Got to go give a Quiz. Talk to you later.
When I first read this my initial reaction was to feel nervous,
thinking that you'd said you were giving *us* a quiz! :)
Ha!!! That'll be the day! But o
But that IS r-as-a-vowel!
John
At 2:02 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.
Dean
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe
what you mean by [3] by analogy with other
s
On 30 Apr 2007 at 15:40, John Howell wrote:
> Got to go give a Quiz. Talk to you later.
When I first read this my initial reaction was to feel nervous,
thinking that you'd said you were giving *us* a quiz! :)
--
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates
hk
- Original Message -
From: "John Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
> At 3:56 PM -0400 4/29/07, dhbailey wrote:
> >Christopher Smith wrote:
> >>
> >>On Apr 29,
On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:11 PM, Matthew Hindson fastmail acct wrote:
Well, OK, my thoughts on this are that hyphenation should follow
how the music is sung, i.e. with each note beginning with a
consonant, and multi-consonants split. "pro-mise" not "prom-ise".
This approach stems from my ti
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:36:49 -0500
From: Robert Patterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Finale] Hyphenating text underlay
To: finale@shsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
I should have added that m
Remind me to invite you to my next party...
only if i get mdl as partner...
At 13:25 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
It's hard for me to imagine pronouncing "damned" as two syllables,
but if ever I did encounter it, I think I'd be sorely tempted to
hyphenate it "dam-ned".
who would make
Good point ... Marshall uses "learn" as the vowel sound model.
Dean
On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:46 PM, John Howell wrote:
Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe what you mean by [3]
by analogy with other standard English words. Otherwise I can't
tell what you're suggesting.
John
At 1
Well, I don't know IPA, but could you describe
what you mean by [3] by analogy with other
standard English words. Otherwise I can't tell
what you're suggesting.
John
At 12:38 PM -0700 4/30/07, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:
Madeleine Marshall info
Andrew Stiller wrote:
>Is this that same _Messiah_ that has "Sing ye comfortobbly to
>Jerusalem" and "the dead shall be raised, raised incorruptibble"?
>
>Sorry, couldn't resist. However: my original point is that -ire is very
>frequently *not* treated as a diphthong in English poetry, but as tw
>but if you write it dam-ned there would be no
>need for the stress accent, which will only
>confuse most english-speaking singers, especially
>if they know a little bit of french and would
>expect an accent aigu instead of grave at this
>point in the word. otherwise, to indicate grave
>inst
On 30-Apr-07, at 3:40 PM, John Howell wrote:
Andrew's point is a good one. "Jazz" itself lacks a rigorous
definition aside from, "I know it when I hear it"!
Is it a STYLE, or is it a PRACTICE. Does a vocalist have to do
scat to qualify as a jazz vocalist? Is a big band chart in perfec
On Apr 29, 2007, at 4:24 PM, John Howell wrote:
Madeleine Marshall informs, "Never sing "r" before a consonant. (p.
9) So, she would have the singers pronounce bird as" b[3]d." I.e.,
she would maintain that the ONLY vowel in said example is [3], and
that the "r" sound does not exist. Thi
On 30-Apr-07, at 3:24 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
so, i guess the choices, depending on context of course -
sprechstimme vs. precisely notated pitches; slang vs. "proper"
english; dialect/regional considerations; broadway vs. "classical"
stage performance - are:
- dam-ned
- damn-èd
At 12:36 PM -0400 4/30/07, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Darcy James Argue wrote:
I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In
The Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned
at how closely Keith's phrasing of the melod
And in four syllables it would be "damn-èd com-fy."
but if you write it dam-ned there would be no
need for the stress accent, which will only
confuse most english-speaking singers, especially
if they know a little bit of french and would
expect an accent aigu instead of grave at this
poin
I didn't get all the way down to the phoneme level, but I did try to
precisely notate Frank's rhythms and phrasing, which was very
challenging.
Cheers,
- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY
On 30 Apr 2007, at 12:29 PM, John Howell wrote:
At 1:12 AM -0400 4/30/07, Darcy James Argu
On 30-Apr-07, at 1:05 PM, shirling & neueweise wrote:
At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in
the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate
that?
darn com-fy
That would be "damned com-fy."
And in
At 00:36 -0700 4/30/07, Mark D Lew wrote:
Suppose your lyric has "comfortable" and you want it to be sung in
the common way on three syllables, how would you spell/hyphenate
that?
darn com-fy
--
shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnota
On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Darcy James Argue wrote:
I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In
The Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at
how closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's -- I
don't think most people
On Apr 30, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:
A clear example of this is the long melisma in #5 of Handel's Messiah,
"and the desi-i-i-i-i-i-ire of all nations shall come". This is
consistent with what basic "correct" choral diction would dictate for
any diphthong.
Is this that same _Mess
At 1:12 AM -0400 4/30/07, Darcy James Argue wrote:
One really great assignments we had at NEC was to transcribe vocal
and instrumental versions of the same song, including the
accompaniment. The goal here was, in fact, to make the vocal
transcription as exact as possible -- not as something you
At 3:56 PM -0400 4/29/07, dhbailey wrote:
Christopher Smith wrote:
On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
You don't say what your hyphenation solution is for "fire", though.
I have simply put it in as a melisma, but admittedly it won't be
sung the same as if was split to two sylla
Christopher Smith wrote:
On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Darcy James Argue wrote:
I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In The
Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at how
closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's --
Mark,
Thanks for the extensive comments on hyphenation when the
pronounciation doesn't reflect the syllabification.
On Apr 30, 2007, at 3:36 AM, Mark D Lew wrote:
Side note: Personally, I pronounce "i-ron" like "eye-ruhn" even in
ordinary speech, and it is a source of ongoing amusement
On Apr 30, 2007, at 6:19 AM, dhbailey wrote:
Darcy James Argue wrote:
I compared the Frank Sinatra and Keith Jarrett recordings of "In
The Wee Small Hours of the Morning." I admit that I was stunned at
how closely Keith's phrasing of the melody resembled Frank's -- I
don't think most pe
Darcy James Argue wrote:
One really great assignments we had at NEC was to transcribe vocal and
instrumental versions of the same song, including the accompaniment. The
goal here was, in fact, to make the vocal transcription as exact as
possible -- not as something you'd ever give to a singer,
On Apr 29, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:
I suppose two syllables in "fire" would be pronounced more or less
"Fie-yer" with the short "e" sustained, not "Fie-yer" with the
"r" sustained. It IS sung differently than a melisma would be; "Fah-
ire". I honestly don't know how to
One really great assignments we had at NEC was to transcribe vocal
and instrumental versions of the same song, including the
accompaniment. The goal here was, in fact, to make the vocal
transcription as exact as possible -- not as something you'd ever
give to a singer, but as a written docu
>You can't be totally rigid, though. A prominent exception is
>words in "-ire" (as fire, tire, mire) that are very frequently
>pronounced in two syllables (esp. in poetry) but which you
>will never see hypenated in any dictionary.
Not to mention the large number of diphthongs (think long a, i,
At 10:32 AM -0500 4/29/07, Robert Patterson wrote:
This is probably gonna start a religious war, but I would like to
read the members' opinions about hyphenating text underlay. Is there
any consensus about whether one should hyphenate according to the
dictionary as opposed to how one sings the
On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:56 PM, dhbailey wrote:
I wouldn't hyphenate "fi- re" for the same reason that I wouldn't
hyphenate against dictionary hyphenation in general. I would trust
that the person in charge of the music would understand that if the
word isn't broken into two syllables, the
Christopher Smith wrote:
On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 29, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
I should have added that my instictive preference is for dictionary
hyphenation, but I want to confirm that instinct. So far I haven't
read any disagreement.
Y
On Apr 29, 2007, at 3:39 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
On Apr 29, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
I should have added that my instictive preference is for
dictionary hyphenation, but I want to confirm that instinct. So
far I haven't read any disagreement.
You can't be totally rigi
On Apr 29, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Robert Patterson wrote:
I should have added that my instictive preference is for dictionary
hyphenation, but I want to confirm that instinct. So far I haven't
read any disagreement.
You can't be totally rigid, though. A prominent exception is words in
"-ire" (a
I should have added that my instictive preference is for dictionary
hyphenation, but I want to confirm that instinct. So far I haven't read
any disagreement.
--
Robert Patterson
http://RobertGPatterson.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http
On Apr 29, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
This is probably gonna start a religious war, but I would like to
read the members' opinions about hyphenating text underlay. Is
there any consensus about whether one should hyphenate according to
the dictionary as opposed to how one sin
On Apr 29, 2007, at 11:32 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
This is probably gonna start a religious war, but I would like to
read the members' opinions about hyphenating text underlay. Is
there any consensus about whether one should hyphenate according to
the dictionary as opposed to how one si
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