--
From: Ed Goertzen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: re: torn: Reply to Ed Wieck
Date: Mon, Dec 6, 1999, 7:35 pm
From: "Ed Weick" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:06:05 -0500
Part of Ed's post begs a reply.
It seems that the Czechs in 1968 tried to bring in Socialism with a human
face. How about Capitalism with a human face?
arthur cordell
--
From: Ed Weick
To: Bruce Leier; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Ed Goertzen
Subject: Re: torn: Reply to Ed Wieck
Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 7:50PM
Ed
--
From: "Cordell, Arthur: #ECOM - COMÉ"[EMAIL PROTECTED]
It seems that the Czechs in 1968 tried to bring in Socialism with a human
face. How about Capitalism with a human face?
arthur cordell
--
Not possible !
Hugs
j
From: "Cordell, Arthur: #ECOM - COMÉ"[EMAIL PROTECTED]
It seems that the Czechs in 1968 tried to bring in Socialism with a human
face. How about Capitalism with a human face?
arthur cordell
--
Not possible !
Hugs
j
Perhaps just "Humanity with a human face"?
Ed Weick wrote:
From: "Cordell, Arthur: #ECOM - COMÉ"[EMAIL PROTECTED]
It seems that the Czechs in 1968 tried to bring in Socialism with a human
face. How about Capitalism with a human face?
arthur cordell
--
Perhaps that was a man named Franklin Delano Roosevelt?
\brad
Responses in the original
- Original Message -
From: "Ed Weick" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Bruce Leier" [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Ed Goertzen"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: torn: Reply to Ed Wieck
Ed,
Couldn't disagree more. Capitalism is the issue.
Reform only strengthens the beast. I'm not going
to trash the local McDs, but I'm also not going to
condemn the tactic. What is this about going
after a label? I and many of us are opposing the
acts and the system -that you do not want to
Dear f/w friends
Many thanks to Michael and others off-list.
I insert some comments in the below.
--
From: Michael Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Torn
Date: Tue, Dec 7, 1999, 3:08 am
Is a simpler life style (snip) of lesser quality?
Central
Snipped
Cordell responds to Middleton responding to Cordell.
When we consider that the monetary system forces both overproduction and
overconsumption, and that the "safety valve" is war to get rid of all the
excess capacity. We could do with a lot less production and consumption and
still have
From: "Ed Weick" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:06:05 -0500
Part of Ed's post begs a reply.
To obtain clarity, can we agree that capital as a stored value is a good
thing. That Capitalizm, the monetary manipulation (percursor to
Ed,
The posting you comment on seems to have been misunderstood by a lot of
people. It was intended as irony and as a demonstration of how laying the
blame for a wide range of woes and human failings on a single group or class
can lead to absurd and dangerous conclusions. My point is that the
quot; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Ed
Goertzen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: torn: Reply to Ed Wieck
Ed,
The posting you comment on seems to have been
misunderstood by a lot of
people. It was intended as irony and as a
demonstration
"Cordell, Arthur: #ECOM - COMÉ" wrote:
Cordell responds to Middleton responding to Cordell.
[snip]
Bringing standards of living down to (choose your country) will not solve
issues related to sustainable development. Bringing misery to the
'developed' countries will not bring the desired
First, thanks.
--
From: "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]":#ECOM - COMÉ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Torn
Date: Mon, Dec 6, 1999, 11:34 am
Is a simpler life style (snip) of lesser quality?
john courtneidge wrote:
Simplicity lies on a scale somewhere between poverty and effluence :
Poverty - - - - - Simplicity - - - - - Effluence
Effluence = Flatulence and other bodily excretions ?
Are you implying excessive waste perhaps associated with overindulgence (not always
Is a simpler life style (snip) of lesser quality?
Central to this oikonimos is our use of money.
[full quote below]
Let me see if I have this right: Because of the structure lent to the
system by the presence and use of money, each act of an individual is
is commoditized and
I was struck by a few lines in a recent posting to a list I'm on, lines
reflecting loathing, disgust and accusation, and perhaps even a dose of
arcane knowledge:
What's the need for all this trade (as if i didn't know !! Most/much trade
involves trash - processed foods, guns, gas, drugs, the
or two of them might fold up, of course, but
then multinationals are being formed and are dying all the time -- it's
their natural state of existence.)
Keith Hudson
At 13:03 03/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
I must admit that I am often torn between supporting those who want freer
trade and those who are interested
It isn't capital that is the source of the problem, it is the political
resistance of capitalists to resolving the contradictions of capitalism
that is the source of the problem. What is intolerable to me is that the
more we acquire the means of actually solving some of the big problems the
more
it, but in a different way, 'power corrupts,
absolute power corrupts absolutely.'
The key is balance.
arthur
--
From: Timework Web
To: Ed Weick
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:10AM
It isn't capital that is the source of the problem
Christoph Reuss wrote:
Ed Goertzen quoted Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia (which keyword?):
"...If the mass of the population
governed and they were virtuous, it was called a timocracy. (The Greek
timios means "worthy.") But if the many were not virtuous, it was called a
democracy.
At 07:10 AM 12/5/1999 -0800, Tom Walker wrote:
It isn't capital that is the source of the problem, it is the political
resistance of capitalists to resolving the contradictions of capitalism
that is the source of the problem. What is intolerable to me is that the
more we acquire the means of
interest.
I guess Lord Acton also said it, but in a different way, 'power corrupts,
absolute power corrupts absolutely.'
The key is balance.
arthur
--
From: Timework Web
To: Ed Weick
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:10AM
n to enlightened self interest.
I guess Lord Acton also said it, but in a different way, 'power corrupts,
absolute power corrupts absolutely.'
The key is balance.
arthur
--
From: Timework Web
To: Ed Weick
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Sun
Arthur Cordell Wrote:
In a globalized world there will be harmonization
(of wages, working conditions, environment, etc.), do we want to try to
achieve upward harmonization or do we allow a drift to lower standards.
There will be harmonization: At what level. I (as you can gather) would
like
http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Esther_Dyson/ip_on_the_net.article
Mark R Measday wrote:
(from the futurework list)
Mr Harrell,
Do you have the relevant URL?
"Ray E. Harrell" wrote:on that
URL that I posted earlier, makes a point about value that is very much
in keeping with the
Cordell responds to Middleton responding to Cordell.
As a central player in the Conserver Society concept developed by the
Science Council (20 years ago where I was a Science Advisor at the time) of
course I agree with your comments.
But going with infant mortality, caloric intake, access to
ht fold up, of course, but
then multinationals are being formed and are dying all the time -- it's
their natural state of existence.)
Keith Hudson
At 13:03 03/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
I must admit that I am often torn between supporting those who want freer
trade and those who are interested in
thanx Tom. I was trying to remember his name (without running to the
bookshelf).Yup, Lange thought he could do it.
--
From: Timework Web
To: Bob McDaniel
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Friday, December 03, 1999 10:23PM
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Bob McDaniel wrote
To: Andrew Straw
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Friday, December 03, 1999 9:16PM
I share some of the same sentiments. And I am conflicted...
Huffy is closing the last of its US factories in Farmington, MO. Folks
(with years of experience in blue-collar manufacturing jobs) are
scrambling
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: torn
Date: Saturday, December 04, 1999 1:56PM
I guess the question is ---In a globalized world there will be harmonization
(of wages, working conditions, environment, etc.), do we want to try to
achieve upward harmonization or do we allow a drift to lower
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 18:44:06 -0500
"Brad McCormick, Ed.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED]Wrote
Real democracy is peer participation in all the important areas of one's
life. Representative democracy is an oxymoron, in which the only
democracy is the democracy of the representatives (like in Athens:
there
--
From: Andrew Straw [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: torn
Date: Fri, Dec 3, 1999, 7:03 pm
Any other answers? Concerns?
***
Yes -
What's the need for all this trade (as if i didn't know !! )
Most/much trade involves trash - processed foods, guns, gas
For comments on Lange see: http://econc10.bu.edu/copy_of_econsys/Theory/Lange.htm
His work, of course, predates the development of linear programming and its more
complex successors, and computers. It strikes me that the work of Douglas Wilson
and its focus on the optimal allocation of people
Ed Goertzen quoted Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia (which keyword?):
"...If the mass of the population
governed and they were virtuous, it was called a timocracy. (The Greek
timios means "worthy.") But if the many were not virtuous, it was called a
democracy. The Greeks generally had a
On Sat, 04 Dec 1999, Keith Hudson wrote:
On balance, and over the longer term, free trade is immensely beneficial
but, over the short to medium term, there are understandable worries
Sounds like those miracle-healers who tell patients "you must get worse
before you can get better" when the
me -- it's
their natural state of existence.)
Keith Hudson
At 13:03 03/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
I must admit that I am often torn between supporting those who want freer
trade and those who are interested in protecting workers in core countries
like the US.
On the one hand, laborers in the US h
I must admit that I am often torn between supporting those who want freer
trade and those who are interested in protecting workers in core countries
like the US.
On the one hand, laborers in the US have fought for decades to attain fair
wages and reasonable benefits for the hard work they do
That is, unless this is postumism. Which it is. What is postumism? It
ain't exactly capitalism and it ain't exactly fascism. It's definitely not
socialism, although "anti-socialism" might be about as close as you're
going to get.
The political economy of postumism poses the following question:
Andrew Straw wrote:
I must admit that I am often torn between supporting those who want freer
trade and those who are interested in protecting workers in core countries
like the US.
[snip]
Make more people owners. Active owners. Both in core AND in peripheral
countries.
Real democracy
This reminded me of a thought I had many years ago when learning linear
programming. It seems that when solving a problem to, say, maximize revenue
subject to a number of constraints imposed by limited resources (materials,
labour, etc.), one automatically solves a dual problem which minimizes
di A. Kessler
Center for U.S.-Mexican Studies
University of California, San Diego
9500 Gilman Drive, Dept. 0510
La Jolla, CA 92093-0510 USA
(858) 534-4147 or (858) 534-4503
*
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Andrew Straw wrote:
I must admit that I am often torn between suppo
On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Bob McDaniel wrote:
It occurred to me then that perhaps only in a centrally planned economy could
one ensure the results of perfect competition or free enterprise!
The same thought occurred to Oskar Lange in the 1930s.
Tom Walker
TimeWork Web
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