Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-16 Thread Joern Rennecke
Quoting Richard Kenner : Unless one can claim "fair use". But the above procedure is also likely to result in taking nothing copyrightable from the original text anyway. But fair use does not apply here (geographically), and I don't want to have to consult a copyright lawyer to verify if I ca

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-16 Thread Richard Kenner
> > With elisp, I've found that in practice I usually start by copying the > > docstring (the "in code doc") to the manual (the "doc doc"), but almost > > always end up largely rewriting to fit the context in the manual better, > > and to explain things in more detail (modern docstrings tend to be

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-16 Thread Joern Rennecke
Quoting Miles Bader : With elisp, I've found that in practice I usually start by copying the docstring (the "in code doc") to the manual (the "doc doc"), but almost always end up largely rewriting to fit the context in the manual better, and to explain things in more detail (modern docstrings te

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-16 Thread Jonathan Corbet
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:45:53 -0400 Robert Dewar wrote: > I think there is a difference between a novel you can hold and > read, and computer documentation. My question was not whether > anyone reads books any more, it was whether people read computer > manuals in this form any more. Just as a ra

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Miles Bader
Florian Weimer writes: >>> Duplication is how other GNU projects handle this. For instance, many >>> Emacs Lisp functions are documented twice: once as a docstring in the >>> source code (which is roughly equivalent to the comment-in-spec >>> approach), and once in the Elisp reference (which is G

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Florian Weimer
* Joel Sherrill: >> This approach is far less useful for languages which haven't got >> separate spec files because it encourages programmers of client code >> to look at the implementation, potentially picking up implementation >> details. It encourages the documentation writer to accidentally r

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Joel Sherrill
On 08/15/2010 04:09 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: * Robert Dewar: Duplication is how other GNU projects handle this. For instance, many Emacs Lisp functions are documented twice: once as a docstring in the source code (which is roughly equivalent to the comment-in-spec approach), and once in t

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Florian Weimer
* Robert Dewar: > In the case of interfaces to library routines, what we do > is to have fully commented Ada package specs that act as > both the documentation of the implementation interface and > as the user documentation (for an example, look at g-spipat.ads). > I can't see any value in duplica

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Robert Dewar
Florian Weimer wrote: * Robert Dewar: Does *anyone* print documentation "out as a book", this seems to me to be a completely obsolete concept. People still buy books which are available freely in electronic form. This means that some printing still goes on. I think there is a difference bet

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Richard Kenner
> This approach is far less useful for languages which haven't got > separate spec files But there aren't many of those! In C, a ".h" file can easily be viewed as a "separate spec file" and interface documentation can and should be placed there, though I understand that few coding conventions cal

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Florian Weimer
* Robert Dewar: >> People still buy books which are available freely in electronic form. >> This means that some printing still goes on. > > I think there is a difference between a novel you can hold and > read, and computer documentation. My question was not whether > anyone reads books any more,

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Florian Weimer
* Robert Dewar: > Does *anyone* print documentation "out as a book", this seems to me > to be a completely obsolete concept. People still buy books which are available freely in electronic form. This means that some printing still goes on. It might also be necessary to consider what it means whe

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Robert Dewar
Florian Weimer wrote: * Robert Dewar: In the case of interfaces to library routines, what we do is to have fully commented Ada package specs that act as both the documentation of the implementation interface and as the user documentation (for an example, look at g-spipat.ads). I can't see any v

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Robert Dewar
Florian Weimer wrote: I was still referring to computer documentation, but admittedly not reference manuals, rather works like introductory texts which have got some sort of narrative strucuture which guides the reader. For reference manuals, it takes a huge amount of effort to make the printed

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Richard Kenner
> I think there is a difference between a novel you can hold and > read, and computer documentation. My question was not whether > anyone reads books any more, it was whether people read computer > manuals in this form any more. To me, it depends on the type of manual and whether it's for somethin

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-15 Thread Florian Weimer
* Robert Dewar: >> Duplication is how other GNU projects handle this. For instance, many >> Emacs Lisp functions are documented twice: once as a docstring in the >> source code (which is roughly equivalent to the comment-in-spec >> approach), and once in the Elisp reference (which is GFDLed). > >

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Paolo Bonzini
On 08/04/2010 11:52 PM, Joe Buck wrote: On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 02:12:18PM -0700, Paolo Bonzini wrote: However, until there is a possibility to relicense anything GPL->GFDL I cannot disagree. In fact, since the GFDL is more restrictive, it is the same thing as the Affero GPL. No, because ther

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Jonathan Wakely
On 4 August 2010 21:03, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >   > I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with >   > keeping that info in a seperate manual; GCC has so many options >   > for various architectures and systems that I think it makes >   > technical sense to have a "Invoking

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Joe Buck
On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 02:12:18PM -0700, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > However, until there is a possibility to relicense anything GPL->GFDL I > cannot disagree. In fact, since the GFDL is more restrictive, it is the > same thing as the Affero GPL. No, because there is explicit language in the Affero

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Paolo Bonzini
On 08/04/2010 10:52 PM, Richard Guenther wrote: On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with > keeping that info in a seperate manual; GCC has so many options > for various architectures and systems that

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Richard Guenther
On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 10:03 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >   > I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with >   > keeping that info in a seperate manual; GCC has so many options >   > for various architectures and systems that I think it makes >   > technical sense to have a "

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Diego Novillo
On 10-08-04 16:03 , Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: There is no rule in the GNU project that all types of documentation must be licensed under the GFDL. Sometimes it makes sense, good examples are the gccint I don't think we want gccint to be under the GFDL. This is the main part of the documentati

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
>You are being denied by RMS. He controls the copyright, the SC has >no legal say, and he's stubborn as hell. > > When presented with weak arguments, then yes he will be stubborn > but rightly so. > > I don't see what the problem is with two manuals, from a users

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
> I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with > keeping that info in a seperate manual; GCC has so many options > for various architectures and systems that I think it makes > technical sense to have a "Invoking GCC" manual. And what about libstdc++ API docs, w

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Brian Makin
I'd hate to see generated documented discounted so quickly. Especially if the alternative is no documentation. I'd note the QT docs as a great example of embedded comments and auto generated documentation done very well.

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Jonathan Wakely
On 4 August 2010 19:48, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with > keeping that info in a seperate manual; GCC has so many options for > various architectures and systems that I think it makes technical > sense to have a "Invoking GCC" manual. A

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Paolo Bonzini
On 08/04/2010 08:48 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: You probably haven't read this thread fully, or you wouldn't imply that GCC should have an "options manual" separate from the user's manual. I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with keeping that info in a sepera

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
You probably haven't read this thread fully, or you wouldn't imply that GCC should have an "options manual" separate from the user's manual. I have read the thread in full, and I do not see the problem with keeping that info in a seperate manual; GCC has so many options for various archit

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Joe Buck
On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 10:34:51AM -0700, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >You are being denied by RMS. He controls the copyright, the SC has >no legal say, and he's stubborn as hell. > > When presented with weak arguments, then yes he will be stubborn but > rightly so. > > I don't see what th

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Paolo Bonzini
On 08/04/2010 07:34 PM, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > So one way to move forward is to effectively have two manuals, > > one containing traditional user-written text (GFDL), the other > > containing generated text (GPL). If you print it out as a > > book, the generated part

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
> > So one way to move forward is to effectively have two manuals, > > one containing traditional user-written text (GFDL), the other > > containing generated text (GPL). If you print it out as a > > book, the generated part would just appear as an appendix to > > the manual, it's "

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Joe Buck
On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 12:21:05AM -0700, Benjamin Kosnik wrote: > > > So one way to move forward is to effectively have two manuals, one > > containing traditional user-written text (GFDL), the other containing > > generated text (GPL). If you print it out as a book, the generated > > part would

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Diego Novillo
On 10-08-04 03:22 , Benjamin Kosnik wrote: The FSF's responsibility for legal matters under the Mission Statement comes with a duty to the developers not to get in the way of the "Patches will be considered equally based on their technical merits." principle from the Mission Statement. The FSF

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Benjamin Kosnik
> The FSF's responsibility for legal matters under the Mission > Statement comes with a duty to the developers not to get in the way > of the "Patches will be considered equally based on their technical > merits." principle from the Mission Statement. The FSF is failing in > its duty to what was

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-04 Thread Benjamin Kosnik
> So one way to move forward is to effectively have two manuals, one > containing traditional user-written text (GFDL), the other containing > generated text (GPL). If you print it out as a book, the generated > part would just appear as an appendix to the manual, it's "mere > aggregation". This

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Miles Bader
Robert Dewar writes: > I am actually a bit dubious about automatic extraction of documentation > from code. The kind of thing you can get this way is in any case easily > obtained by browsing the code. Presumably it saves the effort of browsing the code, which is not a small thing... (If I'm lear

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Steven Bosscher
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Robert Dewar wrote: > Joe Buck wrote: > >> So one way to move forward is to effectively have two manuals, one >> containing traditional user-written text (GFDL), the other containing >> generated text (GPL).  If you print it out as a book, the generated >> part woul

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Joseph S. Myers
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Joe Buck wrote: > On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 05:51:13PM -0700, Paul Koning wrote: > > gcc and gccint docs are actually pretty reasonable. (Certainly gccint is > > vastly better than some of its siblings, like gdbint.) But very little of > > it is generated and very little of w

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Robert Dewar
Joe Buck wrote: So one way to move forward is to effectively have two manuals, one containing traditional user-written text (GFDL), the other containing generated text (GPL). If you print it out as a book, the generated part would just appear as an appendix to the manual, it's "mere aggregation

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Robert Dewar
It's interesting to note that in the case of GNAT, we have no licensing constraints on the documentation that would restrict automatic generation, but we just don't do it. The GNAT documentation is pretty complete, and certainly gets a lot of attention and constant improvement, since we regard it

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Robert Dewar
Diego Novillo wrote: We are already having trouble keeping our documentation up-to-date. Some of it is in such a poor shape as to be laughable. Yes, it's mostly our fault, but if we were able to generate documentation by simply extracting it from the code. Tools exist for this, and properly ma

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Joe Buck
On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 05:51:13PM -0700, Paul Koning wrote: > gcc and gccint docs are actually pretty reasonable. (Certainly gccint is > vastly better than some of its siblings, like gdbint.) But very little of it > is generated and very little of what comes to mind as possible subject matter

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-03 Thread Paolo Bonzini
On 08/03/2010 01:35 AM, Richard Kenner wrote: That is true, but very often the documentation is needed in two places: in the code and in the manual. Especially for things like machine constraints, flags and options. Yes, but the audiences are different between users who read the manual and deve

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Mark Mitchell
Richard Kenner wrote: > "bad" isn't very precise. The claim was made that a reason that it's "bad" > is that not being able to automatically generate documentation lowers > the quality of the documentation. That's what I disagree with. OK, fine; that's a reasonably debatable point. But, we cu

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Richard Kenner
> Richard, your argument is a distraction from the important issue at > hand. Unless you posit that there is no useful way in which to generate > documentation from code (and comments therein), which seems an extreme > statement, then it is desirable that we have the ability to do that. > Right no

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Paul Koning
On Aug 2, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Richard Kenner wrote: >> We are already having trouble keeping our documentation up-to-date. >> Some of it is in such a poor shape as to be laughable. Yes, it's >> mostly our fault, but if we were able to generate documentation by >> simply extracting it from the code

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Mark Mitchell
Richard Kenner wrote: >> That is true, but very often the documentation is needed in two >> places: in the code and in the manual. Especially for things like >> machine constraints, flags and options. > > Yes, but the audiences are different between users who read the manual and > developers who

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Richard Kenner
> That is true, but very often the documentation is needed in two > places: in the code and in the manual. Especially for things like > machine constraints, flags and options. Yes, but the audiences are different between users who read the manual and developers who read the code. For the best qu

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Steven Bosscher
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Richard Kenner wrote: >> We are already having trouble keeping our documentation up-to-date. >> Some of it is in such a poor shape as to be laughable.  Yes, it's >> mostly our fault, but if we were able to generate documentation by >> simply extracting it from the c

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Diego Novillo
On 10-08-02 19:17 , Richard Kenner wrote: We are already having trouble keeping our documentation up-to-date. Some of it is in such a poor shape as to be laughable. Yes, it's mostly our fault, but if we were able to generate documentation by simply extracting it from the code. Tools exist for t

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Richard Kenner
> We are already having trouble keeping our documentation up-to-date. > Some of it is in such a poor shape as to be laughable. Yes, it's > mostly our fault, but if we were able to generate documentation by > simply extracting it from the code. Tools exist for this, and > properly maintained, they

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-08-02 Thread Diego Novillo
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 00:16, Mark Mitchell wrote: > In any case, you're suggesting we go against the express wishes of the > FSF.  Would you suggest that we do that in the context of FSF GCC? Well, this issue is another one in a long series of roadblocks that we've had to struggle with over th

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-31 Thread Robert Dewar
Joern Rennecke wrote: If you want to make the point that the FSF would have to consider fair use if it were to sue in an US court - well, AFAICT it wouldn't have to, it could sue in the court of the contributor's country of residence / incorporation, as is common in patent cases where the patent

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Joern Rennecke
Quoting Robert Dewar : Joern Rennecke wrote: Actually, the legal definition of fair use / fair dealing that might or might not apply depends on the country of residence of the contributer Not true in the US for sure. Are you saying that the USA is a solipsist nation that denies the exis

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Mark Mitchell
Robert Dewar wrote: > Whether something is fair use has to be judged on the very specific > instance in question, not clear to me that RMS has opined on a very > specific issue, if so, I missed it. We don't want to ask RMS every time we want to do this. RMS has opined on some of the specific cas

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Robert Dewar
Joern Rennecke wrote: Actually, the legal definition of fair use / fair dealing that might or might not apply depends on the country of residence of the contributer Not true in the US for sure. , but if RMS says you shouldn't do this, ignoring him is not proper in the context of a GNU projec

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Robert Dewar
Mark Mitchell wrote: Robert Dewar wrote: I don't think it is making this impossible, my advice is simply to consider this fair use and steam ahead, then worry if someone objects. Despite the copyright holder (well, RMS, but he certainly can be interpreted as speaking for the FSF) saying plain

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Toon Moene
Richard Kenner wrote: But even for documentation written by hand, often I find that I'd like to start out with some comment or example from the actual code. The GPL / GFDL dichotomy doesn't allow me to do that, so some documentation just won't get written. Taking an example from actual code w

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Joern Rennecke
Quoting Mark Mitchell : Robert Dewar wrote: I don't think it is making this impossible, my advice is simply to consider this fair use and steam ahead, then worry if someone objects. Despite the copyright holder (well, RMS, but he certainly can be interpreted as speaking for the FSF) saying p

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Mark Mitchell
Robert Dewar wrote: > I don't think it is making this impossible, my advice is simply to > consider this fair use and steam ahead, then worry if someone objects. Despite the copyright holder (well, RMS, but he certainly can be interpreted as speaking for the FSF) saying plainly and clearly that h

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Robert Dewar
Mark Mitchell wrote: Yes, that is part of his thinking. And, yes, we can split our manuals up into GPL and GFDL pieces, and in some cases that will work fine. But, documentation of constraints (important to users for writing inline assembly), or documentation of command-line options (important

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Robert Dewar
Jeff Law wrote: Isn't one of the specific instances of this issue the desire to copy some of the constraints information from the source, which would need to go into the user manual rather than internals documentation? And in some cases a function index with documentation may be precisely wh

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-30 Thread Robert Dewar
Richard Kenner wrote: But even for documentation written by hand, often I find that I'd like to start out with some comment or example from the actual code. The GPL / GFDL dichotomy doesn't allow me to do that, so some documentation just won't get written. Taking an example from actual code wo

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Joe Buck
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 01:20:45PM -0700, Brian Makin wrote: > Or to move to a better foundation? It seems to me that gcc has had various > issues for various reasons for quite a while now. RMS is all for tightly > controller yet freely distributable software. > Maybe it's time to throw more ef

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Brian Makin
>On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Steven Bosscher wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote: >>> Steven Bosscher wrote: >>> > Why not just ignore RMS and the license issues and simply do what we > think suits us and the project. Let the FSF deal with the legal >

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Mark Mitchell
Richard Kenner wrote: > Could part of the problem here be that RMS's view on "documentation" is > that it's meant to be a creative process, somewhat akin to writing a book, > and that mechanically creating "documentation" will produce something of > much lower quality than what's done by hand? Ba

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Richard Kenner
> Isn't one of the specific instances of this issue the desire to copy > some of the constraints information from the source, which would need to > go into the user manual rather than internals documentation? > > And in some cases a function index with documentation may be precisely > what the

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Jeff Law
On 07/29/10 08:26, Richard Kenner wrote: But even for documentation written by hand, often I find that I'd like to start out with some comment or example from the actual code. The GPL / GFDL dichotomy doesn't allow me to do that, so some documentation just won't get written. Taking an example

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Richard Kenner
> But even for documentation written by hand, often I find that I'd like to > start out with some comment or example from the actual code. The GPL / GFDL > dichotomy doesn't allow me to do that, so some documentation just won't get > written. Taking an example from actual code would be "fair use"

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Joern Rennecke
Quoting Richard Kenner : Could part of the problem here be that RMS's view on "documentation" is that it's meant to be a creative process, somewhat akin to writing a book, and that mechanically creating "documentation" will produce something of much lower quality than what's done by hand? Back

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Richard Kenner
> Wait. Steven's comment was on the snarky side, but coming from a > long-time gcc contributor I don't think it was over the line or even > near it. I think he was expressing a perfectly valid point of view > considering the constraints that the FSF places on gcc developers. For > certain aspect

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Toon Moene
Ian Lance Taylor wrote: "Alfred M. Szmidt" writes: Please move such unconstructive arguments elsewhere. Wait. Steven's comment was on the snarky side, but coming from a long-time gcc contributor I don't think it was over the line or even near it. I think he was expressing a perfectly valid

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Miles Bader
Ian Lance Taylor writes: >> Please move such unconstructive arguments elsewhere. > > Wait. Steven's comment was on the snarky side, but coming from a > long-time gcc contributor I don't think it was over the line or even > near it. I think he was expressing a perfectly valid point of view > cons

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Ian Lance Taylor
"Alfred M. Szmidt" writes: > Please move such unconstructive arguments elsewhere. Wait. Steven's comment was on the snarky side, but coming from a long-time gcc contributor I don't think it was over the line or even near it. I think he was expressing a perfectly valid point of view considering

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-29 Thread Alfred M. Szmidt
Please move such unconstructive arguments elsewhere.

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-28 Thread Richard Guenther
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:08 AM, Steven Bosscher wrote: > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote: >> Steven Bosscher wrote: >> Why not just ignore RMS and the license issues and simply do what we think suits us and the project.  Let the FSF deal with the legal cons

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-28 Thread Steven Bosscher
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote: > Steven Bosscher wrote: > >>> Why not just ignore RMS and the license issues and simply do what we >>> think suits us and the project.  Let the FSF deal with the legal >>> consequences, >>> they put us in this messy situation, they deal with

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-28 Thread Mark Mitchell
Steven Bosscher wrote: >> Why not just ignore RMS and the license issues and simply do what we >> think suits us and the project. Let the FSF deal with the legal >> consequences, >> they put us in this messy situation, they deal with it. > > It seems to me that escalating the issue is more help

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-28 Thread Steven Bosscher
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Richard Guenther wrote: > Why not just ignore RMS and the license issues and simply do what we > think suits us and the project.  Let the FSF deal with the legal consequences, > they put us in this messy situation, they deal with it. It seems to me that escalatin

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Mark Mitchell
Richard Guenther wrote: > Why not just ignore RMS and the license issues and simply do what we > think suits us and the project. Let the FSF deal with the legal consequences, > they put us in this messy situation, they deal with it. We should not distribute things in violation of their licenses;

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Gerald Pfeifer
On Tue, 27 Jul 2010, Benjamin Kosnik wrote: > Please, members of the SC, make this case. Done. I, too, find the removal of freedoms that the incompatible GNU licenses (GPLv2 vs GPLv3, GPL vs GFDL,...) create rather unacceptable. Gerald

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Richard Guenther
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote: > Joe Buck wrote: > >> We might need to go in the other direction (less radical, but enough to >> solve the immediate problem).  What if only constraints files are >> dual-licensed (GPL3+ or GFDL) for now?  Then documentation can be >> generate

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Mark Mitchell
Joe Buck wrote: > We might need to go in the other direction (less radical, but enough to > solve the immediate problem). What if only constraints files are > dual-licensed (GPL3+ or GFDL) for now? Then documentation can be > generated from them and we've at least solved that problem. If RMS ag

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Joe Buck
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 08:53:48AM -0700, Mark Mitchell wrote: > I believe that the right fix (short of simply abandoning the GFDL, which > would be fine with me, but is presumably not going to pass muster with > RMS) is a revision to the GPL that explicitly permits relicensing GPL'd > content unde

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Mark Mitchell
Benjamin Kosnik wrote: >> I believe that the right fix (short of simply abandoning the GFDL, >> which would be fine with me, but is presumably not going to pass >> muster with RMS) is a revision to the GPL that explicitly permits >> relicensing GPL'd content under the GFDL, by anyone. > I like th

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Benjamin Kosnik
> I believe that the right fix (short of simply abandoning the GFDL, > which would be fine with me, but is presumably not going to pass > muster with RMS) is a revision to the GPL that explicitly permits > relicensing GPL'd content under the GFDL, by anyone. Movement in > that direction should no

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-27 Thread Mark Mitchell
Robert Dewar wrote: >> I'm disappointed that a license "improvement" (changing GPL to GFDL on >> manuals) has made it impossible to do something that we, as developers, >> used to be able to do (when documentation was under the GPL we could >> move things back and forth between code and documentat

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-26 Thread Miles Bader
Mark Mitchell writes: >> I agree that we are likely to get more traction with a request to dual >> license as opposed to re-license. > > Well, I've asked -- but RMS shot down that idea. Did he give reasons, and/or indicate any other possible methods to use? -Miles -- `Suppose Korea goes to the

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-26 Thread Robert Dewar
Mark Mitchell wrote: I'm disappointed that a license "improvement" (changing GPL to GFDL on manuals) has made it impossible to do something that we, as developers, used to be able to do (when documentation was under the GPL we could move things back and forth between code and documentation at wi

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-26 Thread Mark Mitchell
Benjamin Kosnik wrote: >> What if we ask the FSF if we can dual license the constraints.md files >> under both the GPL and the GFDL? > I agree that we are likely to get more traction with a request to dual > license as opposed to re-license. Well, I've asked -- but RMS shot down that idea. > Not

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-26 Thread Benjamin Kosnik
> What if we ask the FSF if we can dual license the constraints.md files > under both the GPL and the GFDL? Thanks for the update Mark. I agree that we are likely to get more traction with a request to dual license as opposed to re-license. Although I confess to lingering doubts as to the big p

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-23 Thread Mark Mitchell
Ian Lance Taylor wrote: >> Do you think we should just ask the FSF to dual-license all of GCC? > > Sure, it might at least be worth finding out whether they think there is > any problem with that. I've asked on the SC list. Thanks, -- Mark Mitchell CodeSourcery m...@codesourcery.com (650) 331

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-23 Thread Ian Lance Taylor
Mark Mitchell writes: > Do you think we should just ask the FSF to dual-license all of GCC? Sure, it might at least be worth finding out whether they think there is any problem with that. Ian

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-23 Thread Mark Mitchell
Ian Lance Taylor wrote: >> I believe that the only real fix here is (a) for the FSF to abandon the >> GFDL, and relicense manuals under the GPL, or (b) for the FSF to add an >> exception to the GFDL, making it compatible with the GPL in some way. >> However, I have no evidence that the FSF is cons

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-23 Thread Ian Lance Taylor
Mark Mitchell writes: > I believe that the only real fix here is (a) for the FSF to abandon the > GFDL, and relicense manuals under the GPL, or (b) for the FSF to add an > exception to the GFDL, making it compatible with the GPL in some way. > However, I have no evidence that the FSF is consideri

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-22 Thread Mark Mitchell
Joe Buck wrote: > However, if we have text that is entirely generated from a GPL program > by some kind of generator program, that text can be distributed under > the GPL. As a license statement, that's accurate. As a policy statement, the FSF seems to object if the output is a "manual", but n

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-22 Thread Joern Rennecke
Quoting Joe Buck : RMS is unlikely to abandon the GFDL because the features that many object to as non-free are intentionally chosen, in part to make sure that he can get his message out even in situations where a distributor would not agree with that message. I think he hasn't gotten over ESR'

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-22 Thread Joe Buck
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 04:36:46PM -0700, Mark Mitchell wrote: > Steven Bosscher wrote: > > >> 2. Can we move GPL'd code into GFDL'd manuals, or copy text from GFDL's > >> manuals into GPL'd code, or auto-generated GFDL's manuals from GPL'd code? > >> > >> This got complicated; see previous postin

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-22 Thread Mark Mitchell
Steven Bosscher wrote: >> 2. Can we move GPL'd code into GFDL'd manuals, or copy text from GFDL's >> manuals into GPL'd code, or auto-generated GFDL's manuals from GPL'd code? >> >> This got complicated; see previous postings. But, it's not relevant to >> your question, since you're not trying to

Re: GFDL/GPL issues

2010-07-22 Thread Steven Bosscher
On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 1:22 AM, Mark Mitchell wrote: > 2. Can we move GPL'd code into GFDL'd manuals, or copy text from GFDL's > manuals into GPL'd code, or auto-generated GFDL's manuals from GPL'd code? > > This got complicated; see previous postings.  But, it's not relevant to > your question,

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