Mike: Thanks for replying to this user while I've been busy.
RABNUD: I'm sorry for taking so long to reply, but this is the first
chance I've had to write a proper reponse.
Also, it looks like Mike, (one of our more, ummm, shall we say "direct"
members) has replied accurately and succinctly. I
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>Err, there are no moderators on this mailing listmaking private replies
impossibleShaheen''s email forgery law in NH made email without a valid
reply address illegal in NH<
Sigh again, assumes I sent an email to someone/somelist, which I
ha
Paul Lussier wrote:
> What he asked for just simply doesn't exist. That doesn't mean it
> can't or it won't, just that it doesn't now. [...] If this thing
> comes about at all, it will be because those who need it decide to
> band together and develop it themselves
NOW we're getting somewhe
In a message dated: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:54:38 EST
Ray Bowles said:
>Somebody keeps saying it's been done this way for 30
>years...Well maybe it's time to update SOME things.
Ray, you seem to have completely misunderstood everything everyone
has said, at least on this side of the argument.
Thi
*** On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 at 1:34pm RABNUD shared this with the class::
> and he watches the gears spin. Psst: (whisper) they just learned
> something and quietly gained confidence in the cli aspect of Linux
> .
I don't know you from a hole in the wall, but you have got to be the
smartest p
On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 17:45, Rich C wrote:
> Right, the man pages are a reference work. That's the way I have always
> considered them. You don't start reading the reference section of a
> programmers manual to learn a new language, do you? Of course not. Man pages
> are NOT a help system. For th
In a message dated: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:23:50 EST
"Derek D. Martin" said:
>And how could I forget to mention Evi Nemeth's wonderful "Unix System
>Administration Handbook" which now covers Linux (but focuses on Red
>Hat). She will soon be releasing a Linux-specific version of the book
>as well,
Thanks for posting this Mike - I've been waiting for some of the regular
"subscribers" to at least mention the web site (visit and offering to
help maintain it would be nice too).
> I just posted some FAQs to the news web site that might answer
some of your questions. (I chose to point out
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At some point hitherto, Rich C hath spake thusly:
> What is needed in a help system is something like what VMS had, but for
> subject keywords like backup, restore, copy, directory, and stuff like that.
> The help system doesn't really have to do much
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, RABNUD wrote:
>
> At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>
> >I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or
> >whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s
> >doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more differen
- Original Message -
From: "Ken D'Ambrosio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GNHLUG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
>
OTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
>
> In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST
> Greg Kettmann said:
>
> >Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / us
In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST
Greg Kettmann said:
>Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / use curve of
>Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high.
Yes, that's absolutely true. But look at the reason why! What were
they each designed to
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
This list is only accessed by a box which can surf, a crashed box
usually requires expert skill to surf - you got that far...
But lets not lose track of the goal because step 2 fails... we need only
2 more steps!!
Where does this concept fail..
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>what is it exactly that you want to learn NEXT?I can tell you how I got
started with Linux. I was taking Unix System Administrationadministering
Unix-like systems, Linux included, hasn''t really changed all that much
on a fundamental level, in t
I think you're missing the point.
There are always people around to help out in a crisis (this list is a perfect
example). If your system is crashed and you are a newbie, you're probably going to
have to get an expert to help. I don't think that you will find that, for example,
X will always cr
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
Getting warmer!
*
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body.
***
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
Ah! thats fine, I just got confused since the 2 LUGs webpages share a
common GUI.
Fortunately, I had registered here/there (where am I??) a few weeks ago,
so I could also reply *there*.
BTW: Newbies would know the difference between the 2 sites
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or
whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s
doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they
expected - because it''s better. :)<
RABNUD wrote:
>
> A minimal system should still provide help for a newbie
The first time I surreptitiously sat down at a VMS screen, the only
command I could think to type was 'help'. And the response was so
complete that I instantly fell in love. Theretofore my experience
with online assistan
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>They''ve worked great for over 30 yearsAt one time I was a newbie and
didn''t have a clue about Unix, but I got through by reading man pages,
asking questions on mailing lists and usenet, and surfing the web.<
And behind you there was a functio
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
Try launching a cli email client when you don''t know one exists, try
connecting to a POP3 server when you think POP is a drink, try printing
email messages when the xserver is down and you never printed from a DOS
prompt most M$ people I kno
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
Installed Linuxes >40 times. Success (relative success) only came via
GUI installs: Slackware once got to 640 x 480 1 bit color, and since I
wasn''t already an X Expert Back to Mandrake 8.1 I went.
Before I went back to Mandrake, no CLI help
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At some point hitherto, Derek D. Martin hath spake thusly:
> I'm not familiar with any of the others. In print, you might also
> look for I'Reilly's "Running Linux" and/or "Linux Unleashed" which I
> think is a SAMS publication, but I'm not sure.
A
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>you only type what they tell you toRunning a Linux box means you are
your own sysadmin. This is something
that you don''t get so much with some other operating systemsyou will
inevitably have to understand the response from "man tar."But I still
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At some point hitherto, RABNUD hath spake thusly:
> Sheepishly I admit - I have taken a class in "Intro to Unix" - I can
> grep, after a limited fashion, but as a user I''m still a newbie. But
> lets not even talk about cron, at, cups, NICs etc.
Wel
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
Sheepishly I admit - I have taken a class in "Intro to Unix" - I can
grep, after a limited fashion, but as a user I''m still a newbie. But
lets not even talk about cron, at, cups, NICs etc. In fact, I''ve a bone
to pick with Mandrake regarding de
Every manual is fine. Some are just finer than others ;)
-Mike-
--- RABNUD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
>
> Howdy!
>
> Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post -
> with a huge grin!!
>
> (Hints of an online me
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is:
Howdy!
Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post -
with a huge grin!!
(Hints of an online message forum leap to the fore)
>There is no shortage of printed material at
any self respecting bookstore on any partic
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Derek D. Martin wrote:
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>
> At some point hitherto, Greg Kettmann hath spake thusly:
> > It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
> > making the system easier to use. Note that I didn't say le
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 5:43pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class::
>
> That's great! But it's really hard to do that in an e-mail...
>
> And of course they learn less by having you do it for them, if they
> are at all like most people.
I find that not to be the case. In my exa
I don't think that anyone has tried to imply that any single source, be it
books, man pages, etc., was the key to success with Linux. The article in
discussion here touched on the deficiencies of man pages as well as other
non-indexed references, command line or other.
One could argue that,
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At some point hitherto, Greg Kettmann hath spake thusly:
> It has always amazed me just how recalcitrant the Linux community is about
> making the system easier to use. Note that I didn't say less complex. Just
> some way to lower the entry bar.
I
Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / use curve of
Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high. I completely agree
that the man pages are confusing. They often lack real world examples as
well. This can be very imposing to the new user. The response "well the
In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:08:21 EST
"Mansur, Warren" said:
>One problem I see with man pages is that they throw off the newbie user
>by putting every possible option at the top. If a new user sees this,
>they will probably be as confused as ever:
Well, yes, but I often find that
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At some point hitherto, Ray Bowles hath spake thusly:
> have walked at least 6 of my friends through Linux installs,
> Bind/Apache/Sendmail/MySQL and other installs and never once did I say
> RTFM.
That's great! But it's really hard to do that in a
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At some point hitherto, Mansur, Warren hath spake thusly:
> I was actually on a newsgroup where someone had never user tar before.
> They read the man page, and after trying and trying to understand all
> the options they just got frustrated and poste
Interesting. Very common set of problems.
The real problem is this:
What the heck is a newbie doing attempting to install a complex operating
system? Many new distros, particularly Red Hat and Mandrake, have very nice
GUI installation programs that work wonderfully, and install automatically
WHE
Yes, I think it is how we learn. Break things, try to figure them out, and get help
when you need it. But when you break something and someone else fixes it for you
(you only type what they tell you to), I think you miss out on the learning
experience. Running a Linux box means you are your own
In my opinion, SUN puts out a good series called BLUEPRINTS. Many times
it will compare and contrast differing OS's as examples, i.e., "if you're
an NT administrator and you know how to manage user group privilages, here
is how it is done in Solaris".
I agree that there is an abundance of docume
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 1:36pm Michael Costolo shared this with the class::
> I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book
> knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on
> something like a new operating system. There is
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 4:08pm Mansur, Warren shared this with the class::
> One advantage of man pages is being able to pipe them into other
> commands such as grep, whereas interactive help doesn't allow for pipes.
Don't forget the audience. would a newbie need to look at the man pages
for
I'm not so sure I agree. I should preface the following with the fact that,
although I am not newbie, I am certainly not an expert.
I think that there is something to be said for arming yourself with as much book
knowledge as possible, especially when experience is lacking *before* you take on
s
EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the
class::
> What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following
> article at the CentraLUG web site:
>
> http://www.centralug.or
*** On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 at 3:30pm Bruce Dawson shared this with the class::
> What appears to be a rather frustrated newbie posted the following
> article at the CentraLUG web site:
>
> http://www.centralug.org/article.php?sid=37
Anyone have ideas on how to help. I think he has a decent idea.
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