At 01:47 11/08/2010, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
For the record: I consider the current implementation as (one of) the
biggest mistakes in the last ten years.
I agree completely. The fact that obvious absence of consensus is
ignored and we are releasing feature that clearly has no consensus
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:03 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
At 01:47 11/08/2010, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
For the record: I consider the current implementation as (one of) the
biggest mistakes in the last ten years.
I agree completely. The fact that obvious absence of consensus
Zeev Suraski wrote:
Strict typing should go away before any 'official' package comes out of
php.net.
+1 from me as well.
And it is nice to hear that I'm not on my own in that ...
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine
Hi!
I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about there =\ PHP
has a bunch of different types, the current type hinting (typechecking
int is a different kind of type from Zend_Controller_Factory and
SimpleXML - the same kind of types are int and object. The former
are engine types
Completly agree with Zeev, most russian comunity is for the weak type
hinting. Many would like strict, but most of the pro strict type
hinters understand that PHP and strict type hinting not match and vote
for type hints with auto converting.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing
+1. Strict typing will only prevent PHP from being itself, while not
providing the advantages of a real statically types language (as Stas
Malyshev has mentioned in another thread of discussion).
2010/8/11 Arvids Godjuks arvids.godj...@gmail.com:
Completly agree with Zeev, most russian comunity
Hi,
why are we discussing this again?
get the RFC's fixed up (though I would assume by now they are already) and do a
vote and of story
without a vote the status quo from the last release should be maintained for
such a controversial feature, aka if there is no consensus then the strict type
On Tue, 2010-08-10 at 22:52 -0700, Clint Byrum wrote:
So, support the LTS versions of PHP, and let developers try out new features
in a hassle free manner with these interim releases.
We can't try out changes in the core language. (individual developers
may of course provide patches, but not in
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Facts:
There are two facts that matter right now, imo:
- There is no 5.4 or whatever other version as of now.
- There is no RM either.
I don't know why nobody cares (well I do ;), but this is totally
insane. Do we ever learn?
On 9 August 2010 12:32, Bostjan Skufca bost...@a2o.si wrote:
Hi all!
I am developing a small PHP extension and I ATM can't figure out how to get
to $_SERVER['SCRIPT_FILENAME'] content while in PHP_RINIT or PHP_RSHUTDOWN
function. Can someone please hint me with this one?
Thanks,
b.
If
I think that weak type-hinting defeats the whole purpose of the
feature and I would rather not have it than have a non-obvious
implementation.
-1
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:03 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
At 01:47 11/08/2010, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
For the record: I consider the
On 11.08.2010, at 10:53, Pierre Joye wrote:
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Facts:
There are two facts that matter right now, imo:
- There is no 5.4 or whatever other version as of now.
- There is no RM either.
I don't know why nobody cares (well
That's not the issue on the table now.
We need to remove strict typing from trunk before we release anything
'official' from php.net, and the sooner the better. It's clearly not
something there's consensus over, almost the opposite.
We should discuss the merits of auto-converting type hints
On Tue Aug 10 07:42 PM, Josh Davis wrote:
Derick's point was about consistency. The approach described in his
mail is consistent with current syntax and mechanism(s). Current
typehints do not apply any kind of conversion, so treating scalar
hints the same way is consistent with the current
On 11 August 2010 12:10, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
We need to remove strict typing from trunk before we release anything
'official' from php.net
I thought trunk is, to some degree, the work in progress /
developers only, YMMV branch. Pretty much anything/everything in
there is subject
On 11.08.2010, at 14:14, Richard Quadling wrote:
So, the trunk keeps strict typing.
no .. a controversial patch like this should never have gotten into trunk
without a vote. the only place for this patch in the svn.php.net repo would be
a feature branch.
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
2010/8/11 Ilia Alshanetsky i...@prohost.org:
I think that weak type-hinting defeats the whole purpose of the
feature and I would rather not have it than have a non-obvious
implementation.
-1
I would like to point out an argument, posted in the Typehints (was
Re: [PHP-DEV] Annoucing PHP 5.4
I've updated the wiki page for Closures with objects extension with
things that are in Proposal A with modifications but are not implemented:
http://wiki.php.net/rfc/closures/object-extension#status_as_of_august_10_2010
I propose an implementation of closures stored in properties used as
-Original Message-
From: Lukas Kahwe Smith [mailto:m...@pooteeweet.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:19 AM
To: rquadl...@googlemail.com
Cc: Zeev Suraski; Ilia Alshanetsky; Stas Malyshev; Johannes Schlüter; Kalle
Sommer Nielsen; Internals; Derick Rethans
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV]
I wouldn't mind living with neither but I think it's two separate discussions.
-Original Message-
From: Ilia Alshanetsky [mailto:i...@prohost.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:52 AM
To: Zeev Suraski
Cc: Stas Malyshev; Johannes Schlüter; Kalle Sommer Nielsen; Internals;
Derick
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 14:38 +0100, Gustavo Lopes wrote:
I've updated the wiki page for Closures with objects extension with
things that are in Proposal A with modifications but are not implemented:
http://wiki.php.net/rfc/closures/object-extension#status_as_of_august_10_2010
I propose an
On 8/11/10 1:03 AM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
We've also had quite a lengthy discussion on this topic, and there
was more support for 'weak' typing then there was for strict typing.
Yes, I would like to restate the obvious from my email in May:
Really, I am confused what the argument is about. We
At 15:14 11/08/2010, Richard Quadling wrote:
On 11 August 2010 12:10, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
We need to remove strict typing from trunk before we release anything
'official' from php.net
I thought trunk is, to some degree, the work in progress /
developers only, YMMV branch. Pretty
On 11.08.2010, at 16:13, Zeev Suraski wrote:
Maybe I'm old school, but in my opinion, trunk should only contain
agreed-upon features. It should also always build and pass tests
successfully. It's not the wild-west version of PHP, it's PHP's next
version, in progress. Want to work on
On 11 August 2010 15:13, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
At 15:14 11/08/2010, Richard Quadling wrote:
On 11 August 2010 12:10, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
We need to remove strict typing from trunk before we release anything
'official' from php.net
I thought trunk is, to some
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:57:47 +0100, Johannes Schlüter
johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 14:38 +0100, Gustavo Lopes wrote:
I've updated the wiki page for Closures with objects extension with
things that are in Proposal A with modifications but are not
implemented:
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 15:29 +0100, Gustavo Lopes wrote:
* What about allowing properties with function names as
strings or
array($obj_or_class, 'method'), won't that be needed for
being
consistent with local variables?
Well, you cannot do $a = 'phpinfo'; $a(); as
Victor Bolshov wrote:
Having two similar syntaxes that work differently - would make the
situation even worse that it is now - I beleive. And I totally agree
with Rasmus - strict typed language mustnt be called PHP. (Just a poor
user's notice to all of you internals' geeks out there)
2010/8/11
On 11.08.2010, at 16:55, Ryan Panning wrote:
Now, changing the current implementation to weak type hinting would be more
confusing. Because the current syntax used for type hinting classes/arrays is
strict. If changed, you would need to specify that scaler types are weak but
classnames
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote:
...
anyway .. for the love of god, could be please stop arguing in circles, nothing
.. really nothing that people brought forth pro/con any approach in regards to
type checking/hinting whatever hasn't been mentioned on this list multiple
times.
...
I agree with
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 09:55 -0500, Ryan Panning wrote:
IMO some of these debates should be brought to the end
users. Who uses PHP in the end? The users. (And yes, I know the devs
here do to..) What is one thing most companies go by? The customers
come first. This we know best attitude here
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:37:01 +0100, Johannes Schlüter
johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 15:29 +0100, Gustavo Lopes wrote:
* What about allowing properties with function names as
strings or
array($obj_or_class, 'method'), won't that be needed for
being
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 10:17 -0500, Ryan Panning wrote:
One other comment I forgot with my original post:
Why not leave the choice (strict/weak) up to the end users by
implementing both using the syntax I commented about? Is one way or
the
other so bad that it can't be implemented?
Yes. It
Hi,
trying to get back to productive issues:
On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 07:41 -0400, Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
After speaking to a few developers in DPC, I think it makes sense for us to
drop the Sqlite2 extensions from Trunk as they are superseded by the Sqlite3
extensions. The sqlite2 library is
Johannes Schlüter wrote:
Good that this discussion happens in a secret place on a list no
community members can see.
Oh wait. It doesn't. Oh and wait we let users participate!
And we know best - well part of this is that for doing the discussion
in a sane way you need some minimum knowledge
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:37:01 +0100, Johannes Schlüter
johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 15:29 +0100, Gustavo Lopes wrote:
* What about allowing properties with function names as
strings or
array($obj_or_class, 'method'), won't that be needed for
being
Well this is turning into a real flamefest.
Personally I really HATE the 5.3 implementation of typehints - heck
you can't even typehint arrays with an arrayobject instance, it's not
hinting in any way shape or form and is generally broken.
On the other hand I'd like to be able to have the
Hi Elizabeth
2010/8/11 Elizabeth M Smith auroraeosr...@gmail.com:
Well this is turning into a real flamefest.
Personally I really HATE the 5.3 implementation of typehints - heck you
can't even typehint arrays with an arrayobject instance, it's not hinting in
any way shape or form and is
On 11 Aug 2010, at 15:13, Zeev Suraski wrote:
Maybe I'm old school, but in my opinion, trunk should only contain
agreed-upon features. It should also always build and pass tests
successfully. It's not the wild-west version of PHP, it's PHP's next
version, in progress. Want to work on
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:03:14 +0100, Alexey Zakhlestin indey...@gmail.com
wrote:
2010/8/11 Ryan Panning rpann...@gmail.com:
Because the current syntax used for type hinting
classes/arrays is strict. If changed, you would need to specify that
scaler
types are weak but classnames are strict
On 11 Aug 2010, at 17:01, Elizabeth M Smith wrote:
Well this is turning into a real flamefest.
I'm now totally confused to be honest.
Personally I really HATE the 5.3 implementation of typehints - heck you
can't even typehint arrays with an arrayobject instance, it's not hinting in
any
anyway .. for the love of god, could be please stop arguing in circles,
nothing .. really nothing that people brought forth pro/con any approach in
regards to type checking/hinting whatever hasn't been mentioned on this list
multiple times.
+1
please please please please .. read the
Hi!
Yeah, hmm, no, and it is disingenuous of you to equate type hints to
PHP becoming statically typed. I'm sure that some people would love to
See? That's exactly why I am so opposed to calling it type hints.
Because if you called it proper name - strict typing, you'd say it is
Hi!
Sara wrote an extension for zend_parse_parameters() to expose it to
userland and its available in PECL:
http://svn.php.net/viewvc/pecl/params/trunk/
Im a +1 for exposing such functionality from the core/stdlib.
I like the idea, though it looks like this function is a
re-implementation
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is
clear to everybody that there's no consensus about this feature, and
with Rasmus, Zeev Andi, along with many others, being against it, as
of now it can not be a part of an official PHP release.
On the other hand, we
On 11 August 2010 19:20, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote:
I'm against it on sanity and logic grounds. I explained the reasons (for the
Nth time) above. If you still can't comprehend that there's logic behind
what I am saying and call it ideology - well, I guess there's a limit of
Hi
2010/8/11 Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com:
I like the idea, though it looks like this function is a re-implementation
of the engine parsing, which is not good. The function that actually reuses
the engine function would be much better.
I did have a short peak at the code and yes I
Hi
2010/8/11 Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com:
So I'd propose doing the following:
1. Moving parameter typing to a feature branch (by branching current trunk
and then rolling back the typing part in the trunk).
2. Starting 5.4 alpha process after that basing on trunk.
Any objections to
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Stas Malyshev wrote:
So I'd propose doing the following:
1. Moving parameter typing to a feature branch (by branching current trunk and
then rolling back the typing part in the trunk).
2. Starting 5.4 alpha process after that basing on trunk.
Any objections to this?
+1, I think that's the most sensible solution for now that would allow
us to proceed with 5.4, something we all seem to be in agreement on.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote:
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is
Josh,
This too (having both options) was debated many times. Read the archives.
Short version? Strict typing is evil. The only thing that's even
worse? Adding both Strict typing and something else. Why? You get
everything that's bad about strict typing, combined with the added
On 8/11/10 1:30 PM, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is
clear to everybody that there's no consensus about this feature, and
with Rasmus, Zeev Andi, along with many others, being against it, as
of now it can not be a part of an official
On 11 August 2010 19:11, Alexey Zakhlestin indey...@gmail.com wrote:
Did you read second RFC? The one which is about so called weak typehinting.
Stas (and a lot of people on this list) prefer it.
http://wiki.php.net/rfc/typecheckingstrictandweak
Yes of course, but reposting that link is a good
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.comwrote:
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is clear
to everybody that there's no consensus about this feature, and with Rasmus,
Zeev Andi, along with many others, being against it, as of
2010/8/11 Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de:
Hi,
trying to get back to productive issues:
On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 07:41 -0400, Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
After speaking to a few developers in DPC, I think it makes sense for us to
drop the Sqlite2 extensions from Trunk as they are
Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
+1, I think that's the most sensible solution for now that would allow
us to proceed with 5.4, something we all seem to be in agreement on.
A slight aside here, as I have not be bothering about what HAS been implemented
typing wise ... A large section of the code a
At 21:30 11/08/2010, Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is
clear to everybody that there's no consensus about this feature, and
with Rasmus, Zeev Andi, along with many others, being against it,
as of now it can not be a part of an
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
+1, I think that's the most sensible solution for now that would allow
us to proceed with 5.4, something we all seem to be in agreement on.
A slight aside here, as I have not be bothering about
On 11 August 2010 20:40, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Josh,
This too (having both options) was debated many times. Read the archives.
I have already read the archives thank you very much. I'm sure you
have too and you remember that there's never been a consensus. I'm
sure that Derick
At 22:54 11/08/2010, Josh Davis wrote:
On 11 August 2010 20:40, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Josh,
This too (having both options) was debated many times. Read the archives.
I have already read the archives thank you very much. I'm sure you
have too and you remember that there's never
At 22:50 11/08/2010, Alexey Zakhlestin wrote:
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
+1, I think that's the most sensible solution for now that would allow
us to proceed with 5.4, something we all seem to be in agreement on.
A
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
At 22:50 11/08/2010, Alexey Zakhlestin wrote:
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
Ilia Alshanetsky wrote:
+1, I think that's the most sensible solution for now that would allow
us to
You're absolutely right, sorry about that!
Zeev
At 23:11 11/08/2010, Alexey Zakhlestin wrote:
You misunderstood my comment.
Lester asked if he can still have his APIs without type-hinting and I
told him that he can.
That's all
We're not talking about complexities of understanding
--
Alexey
Stas Malyshev wrote:
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is
clear to everybody that there's no consensus about this feature, and
with Rasmus, Zeev Andi, along with many others, being against it, as
of now it can not be a part of an official PHP release.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Josh Davis php...@gmail.com wrote:
If I'm using type checking as a sanity check then it doesn't work as
soon as it accepts 1 for an int. The described weak typehinting is
good if you're looking for a way to validate input. However, it does
not work if you're
Zeev Suraski wrote:
You're absolutely right, sorry about that!
Zeev
However if this is something controlled by php setup, it becomes another
'register_global'. If my users have to have it off for my projects and on for
others ... complexity in managing instead :(
At 23:11 11/08/2010,
On 11 August 2010 21:59, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Consensus about what? About two similar features with slightly different
syntax being a bad thing? I don't think we need consensus for that. That's
not up for discussion. It's an axiom for PHP.
Of course it depends on your
At 23:59 11/08/2010, Josh Davis wrote:
Not sure what kind of impact we're talking about here. Currently,
there's no scalar type hinting and there will never be a consensus
around strict XOR weak. Having an implementation that allows both
while reusing a familiar syntax (parentheses as a way
At 00:26 12/08/2010, Zeev Suraski wrote:
Moving forward with both is certainly not the only option, I'd say
(given the paragraph above) that it's not an option at all. At the
very least, there's one other option which is doing nothing. And
that's assuming we can't reach widespread consensus
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote:
Hi!
I think by now, whatever you think on strict typing/typehints, it is clear
to everybody that there's no consensus about this feature, and with Rasmus,
Zeev Andi, along with many others, being against it, as of
On 11 August 2010 23:26, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
matter how much I try to explain - it won't help - we probably see things
too differently for us to ever agree on it. Let's end it by saying that a
great deal of people here think it's horrible to introduce strict typing to
PHP
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 23:34 +0200, Pierre Joye wrote:
- What are the top new things we like to have in
I would say
* Traits
* Aray dereferencing
* $this support inclosures
As language changes, in combination with performance improvements make a
good package.
This combined
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 23:26, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Now that strict typing is pretty clearly off the table [...]
Did I miss a vote or something? The only thing I've seen is the same
small group of people that has been fighting for the last few months.
Your reasoning seems to be
At 00:58 12/08/2010, Josh Davis wrote:
Now that strict typing is pretty clearly off the table - how would those
Wait, what? Clearly off the table?
Yes, clearly off the table.
I'm not sure how long you've been on internals, but I'm not sure
there's any precedence to such strong and diverse
Hi!
I think using trunk as base is a mistake. We should begin using a
stable branch (5.3) and merge what we want for the next release. It is
also too early to begin to think about 5.4 as there is still a couple
of things to clarify before. The most important ones being:
Why have trunk then?
Daniel,
In order to radically change PHP you need very strong consensus. If
you don't have it, the status quo holds.
Strict typing doesn't have anything remotely close to strong
consensus. It doesn't really matter if a lot of people support it -
there are also plenty of people who oppose
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Stas Malyshev smalys...@sugarcrm.com wrote:
It'd be alpha, you have enough time.
Is it really the new way to do things in php.net? Totally ignore other
developers, discuss things privately, act like the last of the last
and drop a mail to officially announce a
Pierre,
With all due respect, there are plenty of things already in trunk to
make it a worth while effort to start planning the 5.4 release. Just
because you disagree, an opinion you are entitled to (like everyone
else), does not mean it is a no go, last I checked no one had veto
powers on the
Hi!
I'm totally against an alpha at this stage. Not before we have
clarified all we need to get a clean release.
OK, so what do you propose to do? I.e., if you think there are things to
be discussed, set the agenda. I think that besides typing, trunk is ok
for alpha, you obvious don't think
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:11 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
At 00:58 12/08/2010, Josh Davis wrote:
Now that strict typing is pretty clearly off the table - how would those
Wait, what? Clearly off the table?
Yes, clearly off the table.
I'm not sure how long you've been on
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Ilia Alshanetsky i...@prohost.org wrote:
Pierre,
With all due respect, there are plenty of things already in trunk to
make it a worth while effort to start planning the 5.4 release. Just
because you disagree, an opinion you are entitled to (like everyone
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Ilia Alshanetsky i...@prohost.org wrote:
Pierre,
With all due respect, there are plenty of things already in trunk to
make it a worth while effort to start planning the 5.4 release. Just
because you disagree, an opinion you are entitled to (like everyone
On 12 August 2010 00:11, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
I'm not sure how long you've been on internals, but I'm not sure there's any
precedence to such strong and diverse opposition to a feature - amongst both
core developers, original authors and the community at large.
I don't know, I
On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 01:21 +0200, Josh Davis wrote:
Either way, let me skew your numbers a bit by using Ilia's blog post
from last year [1] and earlier this year [2]. If that was my only
benchmark I'd say that there is unanimous support for the
implementation in current trunk. I guess it
2010/8/12 Johannes Schlüter johan...@php.net:
Yes, my blog posting reflects my opinion and therefore is manipulative
Indeed. Depending where you'll look, you'll find big communities that
have no clue about or no need for type hinting/checking/casting, some
communities where strict typing is
On 2010-08-11, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:11 AM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
To think that one guy considered that he is allowed to decide to fire
a 5.4, announce it, all that without a single discussion in the public
list is really bad. Even worst
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
Zeev Suraski wrote:
You're absolutely right, sorry about that!
Zeev
However if this is something controlled by php setup, it becomes another
'register_global'. If my users have to have it off for my projects and on
Stas Malyshev wrote:
I'm totally against an alpha at this stage. Not before we have
clarified all we need to get a clean release.
OK, so what do you propose to do? I.e., if you think there are things to
be discussed, set the agenda. I think that besides typing, trunk is ok
for alpha, you
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