Dear David,
yes, you're right, I shall speak for myself. And sorry, I should have
been more precise. What I was referring to in particular is playing solo
pieces. I for one will always prefer tablature when it comes to playing
solo pieces, on renaissance or baroque lute, no matter how exact or
app
T-Online eMailDear Mathias,
I see what you are getting at. Italian (and Englksh and French) keyboard music
was called tablature (intabulatura or reduicte en tablature) because several
parts were reduced ("tabulated") onto two staves. But that does not make it
tablature, according to the modern
Dear Arthur,
Francesco is about to release the new version of Fronimo, which should
be even better than the current one. I find it very easy to use and
(perhaps strangely for a tab program) very good for staff notation. I
often use it to create scores incorporating lute tab for three or four
In fact it is excellent. See Carl Loewe's "Die Schlanke Wasserlilie" at
http://polyhymnion.org/lieder/german.html .
It was done up in Fronimo, and the notation part was not simple.
RT
> Francesco is about to release the new version of Fronimo, which should
> be even better than the current one.
Mathias, you can and may speak for 99.9% of "us", because David's
prowess is in no way indicative of habits or abilities of the general
lute population.
I am with you on the first issue, because our first responsibility is
music itself, and playing from written out music rather than from
tabula
I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take issue
with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2 centuries,
which astonishingly, you called a recent development. I did sense a
hau
Hi Michael,
please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation.
The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done b
Hi Stephen,
Do you want to read tablature or standard notation?
For standard notation, see "Mel Bay Presents Guitar Music of the 16th Century,"
Keith Calmes, ed., Mel Bay Publications, 1995. Also, "French Renaissance Guitar
Songs: 2nd Livre de guiterre 1555," Chuck Wolzien, ed., Doberman-Yppan
Hi
BTW: It's absolut correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a
relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late
baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the
guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes this
Dear Arthur,
thanks a lot for those kind and clever suggestions regarding different
modes of edition. I shall forward them!
Modern transcriptions of intabulated vocal part music can be considered
restorations of the original notation. To that I must agree. But with
instrumental music, things are
"Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all,
> because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori
> dispensable in it.
point taken, yes. You may say I play alien music on the lute :)
All the best
Mathias
--
At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition. But it is for keyboard
>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
>OUT This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
>when they claim that when lute mus
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
>At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
>
>
>>...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition. But it is for keyboard
>>(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
>>OUT This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have
>Hi Michael,
>please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
>tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
>(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation
Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However accordi
>BTW: It's absolute correct to tell the way guitar music is >notated today a
>relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance >until the late
>baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate >the music for the
>guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar >technique causes
th
Michael wrote:
>
> Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
>comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
>for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
>present, a " relatively modern invention" your sense of
A central tenet of my lute lessons is: Both hands should remain
in a relaxed position -- as if the player were asleep, and the fingers
had curled up. Even fingers which are busy should depart
from this relaxed position as little as possible.
Is this a common thing for teachers to emphasize?
Herbert Ward wrote:
>
> A central tenet of my lute lessons is: Both hands should remain
> in a relaxed position -- as if the player were asleep, and the fingers
> had curled up. Even fingers which are busy should depart
> from this relaxed position as little as possible.
>
> Is this a common th
>At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies >Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, >200 easily falls into that category.
It's not an insult, just a >fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years >old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger >than t
At 12:18 PM 7/5/2005, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote:
>I recommend, however, that you find the tablatures of le Roy, Gorlier,
>Brayssing, and Morlaye. James Tyler may have an edition of some of these,
>and Monkmeyer has an edition of Le Roy's 1st book, pub. by Moeck Verlag
>Celle, 1995. Otherwise you'll
And also in the same vein...
The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.
Where is this thread going?
Perrine? Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo?
Best Wishes
Ron (UK)
-Original Message-
From: Craig Allen [ma
Herbert Ward wrote:
>
> A central tenet of my lute lessons is: Both hands should remain
> in a relaxed position -- as if the player were asleep, and the fingers
> had curled up. Even fingers which are busy should depart
> from this relaxed position as little as possible.
>
> Is this a common th
This is for Ron, actually. I think Bernd might have been trying to point
you back to the beginning of the thread (which has occasioned a long overdue
refusal of messages from one member of the list), and pointing you to:-
you can download it from Richard Civiol's homepage:
http://www.ifrance.com
>The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
>Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.
I guess that's why we call Europe the old world, and America the new
world. The only problem is Ness lives in Boston! Things happen here allot
faster than over there.
Michael Thames
www
There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is
used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the
Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will
frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do not mark a
>There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that >the grand
staff is used for keyboard music so that each >hand has a separate staff.
Hence the Schrade <><(Kohlhase) >staff. But with baroque lute music, the
right frequently play in the bass clef. So the two mark a separation point bet
"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I'm not familiar with Vetter's book. But couldn't you extract the lines as
> SATB, put words
> to themand sing them in your chorius? That's what I mean by "parts." Lote
> of instrumental
> music is like vocal music, but without words.
yes, that's the ca
>As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at >all,
>because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes dispensable in it.
>RT
My heart is filled with joy, and prayers have been answered, that
you have finally come full circle and reinvented yourself as the REAL Roman
At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music
and she said (before a baroque recital): "come on let's go to the cinema - I
can't stand that modern stuff" :-)
I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation but
given a time line of - say 9
>At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which >played medieval
music
>and she said (before a baroque recital): "come on let's go >to the cinema -
I
>can't stand that modern stuff" :-)
>I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity >of guitar notation
but
,>given a time line of -
I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection
Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?
The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute
pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the
g-minor suite (po
Dear Craig,
Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special notation
for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent. It's even recent
in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the 1400s. I don't
know where guitarists picked up the idea of a t
"Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Yes, an the term tablature for what is essentially the basic grand staff of
> keyboard
> musicwas so called in theRenaissancesince 4 "instrumental voice parts" were
> tabulated onto
> two staves. Thatis the origin of lute tabature, but they used numbers
> i
About those reviews - the LSA has a new reviews editor, who some of you
will recognize from this list. If you have music or a CD and want
considered for review send it to:
Howard Posner
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2734 Oakhurst Avenue
Los Angeles CA 90034
I want to reinforce what Arthur has said about sen
Arthur Ness wrote:
>There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is
>used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the
>Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will
>frequently play in the bass clef. So the
where are you getting your guitar? any chance of
photo's?
best wishes. sounds exciting - bill
"and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don
Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph
of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www
Perrine is newly set by Doug Towne (whose work is tremendous!) and can be
downloaded on Francesco's Yahoo-Fronimo site.
Best wishes
Thomas
Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 20:36 schrieben Sie:
> And also in the same vein...
>
> The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
> Only Americans consider
Arthur Ness wrote:
> And recently there has been an interest in"authentic" performance pratices in
> Brahms. I recently heard the Fourth Symphny played on period instruments of
> the kind in use in Brahms's day.
I'm not sure what time scale we're using here. Norrington's four CDs of the
four Br
Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able to depict
lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double functions
of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to smoothly
change function which is not possible in keyboard music.
Bes
Thomas Schall wrote:
>Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able to depict
>lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double functions
>of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to smoothly
>change function which is not possibl
On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
> Thomas Schall wrote:
>
>> Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able
>> to depict
>> lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double
>> functions
>> of bass notes in lute music. The octave strin
that's my point! There notated as a bass (for instance a C ///a assuming
renaissance g-tuning) but there is also a c sounding an octave higher which
could be used to lead to a tone an octave higher and so on. Take a look at
italian early baroque music. This effect is used very often.
Best wishe
Roman Turovsky wrote:
>On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
>
>
>
>>Thomas Schall wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able
>>>to depict
>>>lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double
>>>functions
>>>of b
Thomas Schall wrote:
>that's my point! There notated as a bass (for instance a C ///a assuming
>renaissance g-tuning) but there is also a c sounding an octave higher which
>could be used to lead to a tone an octave higher and so on. Take a look at
>italian early baroque music. This effect is us
Thomas,
So I assume that the c-minor prelude in tablature, is the only source
for this piece?
So that being said, I can't wait to get my hands on all this new lute
music Aurther Ness mentions, Byrd, Couprin, Vivaldi, etc. Does anyone know
where to find the original facsimiles?
Michael
>Dear Craig,
>Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, >so when special
notation for guitar was invented 200 >years ago that is surely recent. It's
even recent in the >history of the guitar, which has been around since the
>1400s.
Dear Arthur, the six string guitar, which
Yes, that's the point. But editors of lute music tebnd to favor these days the
Schrade/Kohlhase grand staff. I think it works well with baroque lute music,as
Doug Smith and Tim Crawford have demonstrated in their Weiss edition, and as
Kohlhase demonstrated in te New Bach Edition. But for the ty
I was reading just a few years ago (last year?) something about tempo in
Brahms. There were some listeners who timed separet movements under Brahms's
direction. And from that one might get an idea of the tempo he took. So
certainly interest in "authentic" performance practices in 19th-century
Michael,
the c-minor prelude is in staff notation NOT in tablature!
Vivaldi's lute conceros are written in staff notation, too. It was common to
write the lute part in staff notation for that kind of music. You'll find it
also in Fasch and others. I don't know about Byrd though ...
I could send
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff),
but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my mi
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff),
but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my mi
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff),
but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my mi
I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small notes. Sometimes
I've used oneor two notes when a suspensionwasresolvedona lower stringand the
direct resolution wouldbe due to octave stringing.
I'm notgoing t postthis tothe list.
- Original Message -
From: Greg M. Silve
It is in pitchnotationonthegrand staff. No original tablature survives.
- Original Message -
From: Arthur Ness
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
P
I remember someone doing this with bar.guitar music.
RT
> I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small notes.=A0
> Sometimes I've used oneor two notes when a suspensionwasresolvedona
> lower stringand the direct resolution wouldbe due to octave stringing.
> =A0
> I'm notgoing t po
Dear Arthur,
I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
RT
On Jul 5, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Michael Thames wrote:
>> There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that >the grand
> staff is used for keyboard music so that each >hand has a separate
> staff.
> Hence the Sch
Arthur Ness wrote:
> And surely Norrington was among the very first to explore
> histiorical performance practices in Romantic music.
A safe enough statement, if we're talking about orchestral music.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-adm
Actually, Jaques Gallot did so. I recall in an a minor prelude, he had
small notes for the octaves, large ones for the fundamentals. It was an
effect that he desired.
ed
At 06:55 PM 7/5/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote:
>I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small
>notes. Some
Sor advocated grand staff for guitar music.
-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine
>BTW: It's absolute co
Right, and when the same historians talk about things "classical" they are
talking about things roughly 2500 years old.
-Original Message-
From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM
To: Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwi
Indeed, notions of HIP, period instruments, etc. have gained common currency.
For example, there are musicians performing music inspired by "classic rock" who
eschew the use of digital processing in their sound production.
-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sen
Recommended is Aaron Shearer's "Learning the Classic Guitar, Volume 1" in which
you will find essential information (albeit guitar-centric) on playing fretted
instruments ergonomically.
In fact, the section on "principles of efficient muscular function" pertain to
any form of instrumental music p
One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition. In music,
Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism. For example,
his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord resolving
to an F major chord. Those who traditionally understood a
>Dear Arthur,
>I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
>RT
Trovosky, I know it's a little difficult for you to confirm or deny
your own existence's, let alone the existence of 18th century guitar music,
but stretch your intellect a little and really marvelous things mi
>Right, and when the same historians talk about things >"classical" they are
>talking about things roughly 2500 years old
Earth to Stuart.earth to Stuart... are you there Stuart...hello!
hello! I think we lost him sir
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Mes
Arthur and any others who are tinterested:
Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below. I always assumed the pieces I
have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of
Byrd's other music. Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that
I can read? I'd love to get a l
>Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below. I always >assumed the pieces I
>have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations >taken from some of
>Byrd's other music. Has someone done an article on >Byrd's lute music that
>I can read? I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which >manuscripts
>One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of >tradition. In
music,
>Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of >modernism.
Another definition of modernism something that came after, the
thing that came before.
In which case Stuart, were all in a moving pi
>And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to >which Bach apparently
>(the case is still not closed) >transcribed and added a violin part. It is
>always possible >that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on
>>grand staff), but if not Bach made the transcription. The >questio
In the case of BWV 1025, the style of the tablature is definitely that of
SLW. The movements, etc are typical of his late works. The JSB version
did some changes & transpositions, etc. 1025 was previously listed as a
spurious work of JSB [prior to recent discovery of the concordance with
Wei
Michael Thames wrote:
> So, please show me an original baroque lute piece that uses bass clef.
> It can't be done because all major, players composing original lute music
> used Tablature. You New York village idiot!
Filippo della Casa's lute book is written largely in two staves (bass and
treble
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