On Jul 9, 2005, at 2:00 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
The problem is the great range of the baroque lute from
A below the bass clef with 3 ledger lines, and over to
(say) C an 8ve above middle C would require four ledger
lines. Persons with expertise in musical notation advise
against using too
On Wednesday, July 06, 2005 5:44 PM Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
6-course guitars were rather unique to Spain. Elsewhere the progression
seems to have been to leave 5-course guitars single strung just before it
became commonplace to build guitars to carry six single strings.
When the lute part played in the tuttis, playing
continuo, bass clef was used. I suspect that sometimes
Malipiero left out the bass line for lute in the tutti
sections. Since the solo lines were usually a single
line with chords here and there, the treble clef would
suffice in the solo
Mathias,
But those are arrangements for guitar, aren't they? I
think I have that edition. I have a copy of at least on
EmilVogl edition of Bohemian lute music, but I think it
is arranged for guitar. I can't find it nowalas
If he didn't do more than one.
The problem is the great range of the
At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
What has confused many is
that in treble clef, the lute sounds an octave lower. I
think these days this is accepted, whereas earlier
O'Dette and others proposed a small lute to play an
octave higher than the usual instrument. I think Paul
now agrees that
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
For Mr. O'Dettes old Hyperion recording of the Vivaldi works, he played all
with the mandolino but RV 540. The works that specified leuto, he played
with the fingers, and those that specified mandolino he played with a
plectrum. I asked him about this when he
At 04:09 PM 7/8/2005, Howard Posner wrote:
For Mr. O'Dettes old Hyperion recording of the Vivaldi works, he played all
with the mandolino but RV 540. The works that specified leuto, he played
with the fingers, and those that specified mandolino he played with a
plectrum. I asked him
Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
But those are arrangements for guitar, aren't they?
in his preface, he said he transcribed the music in a way that
guitarists may use it, also. There are quite a few mistakes both in his
rendering of the tablature and in his guitar staff notation (in fact,
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in tablature,
whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves nothing as for
harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?
In principle, I don't see much difference between notation or tab for
seeing
Carl Phillip Emmanuel Bach did similar things some 30-40 years earlier.
He would begin an F-major sonata with a phrase in c-minor, or avoid
establishing a key at all for the first 14 bars.
RT
One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition. In
music,
Beethoven is
Dear Stuart,
Yes,thank you for mentioning it. As late as 1814. Sor uses bass and alto
clefs. Others advocated it too for solo music. And a single staff when the
guitar was used as an accompanying instrument. It is really too bad that
guitarists dropped the grand staff notation. Many
You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in tablature,
whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves nothing as for
harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?
Yours truly has equal ear for tabulature (baroque) and notation. I also
know people who can sing from tab. And
Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in tablature,
whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves nothing as for
harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?
... but there is not so much difference in tracking
a voice through tab than in
Dear Matthias,
This will be my last comment. Sorry tohave dominatedthe
discussion. I amoff toMaine where one of my former
students in composer in residence at a music festival. I
wantto hear his latest orchestral work. He isan
enthusatist for early music, too, and often uses
snippets in his
Likewise the Polymnia Galliard by Galilei (orchestrated byRespighi). In the
second strainthe melody in in an inner voice. Respighi and O'Dette found it and
emphasize it. But most of us would play the upper line, which is quite
melodeous. Players some time miss it,unless they consult a score.
I think you just demonstrate your ignorance when you write things like this,
Michael. And snide, rude remarks just create a hostile environment, and weaken
your argument, if you had one. You do not help your advocacy of guitar music
with such an attitude. No one here is attempting to ridicule
Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
You cannot see the direction of a voice's movements in tablature,
whereas in staff notation you can. Tablature proves nothing as for
harmony and counterpoint. Agreed?
... but there is not so much difference in tracking
a voice through tab than in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity
Michael, I encourage you to educate yourself. And if the dollops of insult you
add to your remarks are intended for comic amusement, you might start working
on some new material.
-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL
Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
stave. Do you? And it's virtually impossible to notate baroque lute music on
a single stave.
Emil Vogl did it in his edition of Bohemian lute music (Logy et al)
Viele Grüße
Mathias
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At 06:37 PM 7/5/2005, Thomas Schall wrote:
the c-minor prelude is in staff notation NOT in tablature!
Vivaldi's lute conceros are written in staff notation, too. It was common to
write the lute part in staff notation for that kind of music. You'll find it
also in Fasch and others. I don't know
Yes - the visual support is better in pitch/standard notation but in many
cases I can sing (if I only could :-)) the melody from tab.
But - it's easier from standard notation ...
Best wishes
Thomas
Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 12:18 schrieben Sie:
You cannot see the direction of a voice's
At 06:01 AM 7/6/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
Those early 6 course guitars were also double (and sometimes triple-)
strung. I don't know when the single strung guitar became common. But
that shouldn't be too difficult to determine. There's a fine new book out
on the early history of the C.F.Martin
Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 13:53 schrieben Sie:
Arthur wrote:
Most transcriptions are usually consulted not by
keyboard players (who already have sufficient repertory
for their instruments), but by lutenists.
Both Paul O'Dette and Christopher Wilson have told me
that when they are working
for an overview of the early romantic guitar visit
http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/
Thomas Schall
Am Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 18:44 schrieben Sie:
At 06:01 AM 7/6/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
Those early 6 course guitars were also double (and sometimes triple-)
strung. I don't know when the
At 11:51 AM 7/6/2005, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
Staff notation being new...
This, of course, should have read ...new to guitar... Sorry for my
ambiguity.
Eugene
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
At 12:23 PM 7/6/2005, you wrote:
In fact older than 6 course/string guitars: we musn't forget that the
later 5 course guitar in France in the 2nd half of the 18thC used the
octave transposing treble clef (ie as modern guitar music).
Good point, Martyn. Thus my use of the adverb roughly.
Thomas Schall schrieb:
And yes - Markus - I think there is lute music. It has a very special
repertoire. Of course there are examples like the
Vivaldi/Krebs/Marino/Rust/Falckenhagen etc.etc. concertoes be they notated
like they want to be.This is a genre of it's own (divided in
At 01:05 PM 7/6/2005, Thomas Schall wrote:
for an overview of the early romantic guitar visit
http://www.earlyromanticguitar.com/
I like Len and his site, but in reading there be certain to recognize where
his opinion is opinion and not necessarily fact: for example, I think his
effort to
T-Online eMailDear Mathias,
I see what you are getting at. Italian (and Englksh and French) keyboard music
was called tablature (intabulatura or reduicte en tablature) because several
parts were reduced (tabulated) onto two staves. But that does not make it
tablature, according to the modern
Dear Arthur,
Francesco is about to release the new version of Fronimo, which should
be even better than the current one. I find it very easy to use and
(perhaps strangely for a tab program) very good for staff notation. I
often use it to create scores incorporating lute tab for three or four
In fact it is excellent. See Carl Loewe's Die Schlanke Wasserlilie at
http://polyhymnion.org/lieder/german.html .
It was done up in Fronimo, and the notation part was not simple.
RT
Francesco is about to release the new version of Fronimo, which should
be even better than the current one. I
Dear Arthur,
thanks a lot for those kind and clever suggestions regarding different
modes of edition. I shall forward them!
Modern transcriptions of intabulated vocal part music can be considered
restorations of the original notation. To that I must agree. But with
instrumental music, things are
Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all,
because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori
dispensable in it.
point taken, yes. You may say I play alien music on the lute :)
All the best
Mathias
--
To
At 08:57 AM 7/2/2005, Arthur Ness wrote:
...There is a transcrption of the 1680 edition. But it is for keyboard
(ed.Erdas for Ut Orpheus),and ALL THE SPECIAL FINGERINGS FOR LUTE ARE LEFT
OUT This is a resujlt of that disease guitar players seem to have,
when they claim that when lute music
Hi Michael,
please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation
Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However according to
BTW: It's absolute correct to tell the way guitar music is notated today a
relatively modern invention. From the early renaissance until the late
baroque/early romantic period it was common to notate the music for the
guitar in tablature. I wonder if the change in guitar technique causes
this
Michael wrote:
Thomas, I usually see your logic, and agree with almost all of your
comments. However to call a system of guitar notation that has been around,
for 200 years, and used by the foremost guitar composers of the past and
present, a relatively modern invention your sense of the
At a guess I'd have to say that when a person who studies Renaissance and
Medieval music calls a thing modern, 200 easily falls into that category.
It's not an insult, just a fact of the thing being only 200 vs. 400 or more
years old. Historians also often tend to call anything younger than the
And also in the same vein...
The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.
Where is this thread going?
Perrine? Does anyone have any sample (example) files in Fronimo?
Best Wishes
Ron (UK)
-Original Message-
From: Craig Allen
This is for Ron, actually. I think Bernd might have been trying to point
you back to the beginning of the thread (which has occasioned a long overdue
refusal of messages from one member of the list), and pointing you to:-
you can download it from Richard Civiol's homepage:
The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
Only Americans consider 100 years to be a long time.
I guess that's why we call Europe the old world, and America the new
world. The only problem is Ness lives in Boston! Things happen here allot
faster than over there.
Michael Thames
There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is
used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the
Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will
frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do not mark
There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff.
Hence the Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the
right hand will frequently play in the bass clef. So the two staves do
not mark a
Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm not familiar with Vetter's book. But couldn't you extract the lines as
SATB, put words
to themand sing them in your chorius? That's what I mean by parts. Lote
of instrumental
music is like vocal music, but without words.
yes, that's the case with a
As to continuo: it is big mistake to consider it lute music at all,
because regardless how many lutes it may employ lutes are a priori
dispensable in it.
RT
My heart is filled with joy, and prayers have been answered, that
you have finally come full circle and reinvented yourself as the
At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval music
and she said (before a baroque recital): come on let's go to the cinema - I
can't stand that modern stuff :-)
I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation but
given a time line of - say
At a lute festival I met a member of an ensemble which played medieval
music
and she said (before a baroque recital): come on let's go to the cinema -
I
can't stand that modern stuff :-)
I do understand Michael's point regarding the modernity of guitar notation
but
,given a time line of - say 900
I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection
Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire?
The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute
pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the
g-minor suite
Dear Craig,
Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special notation
for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent. It's even recent
in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the 1400s. I don't
know where guitarists picked up the idea of a
Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yes, an the term tablature for what is essentially the basic grand staff of
keyboard
musicwas so called in theRenaissancesince 4 instrumental voice parts were
tabulated onto
two staves. Thatis the origin of lute tabature, but they used numbers
instead of
Arthur Ness wrote:
There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand staff is
used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate staff. Hence the
Schrade (Kohlhase) staff. But with baroque lute music, the right hand will
frequently play in the bass clef. So the two
Perrine is newly set by Doug Towne (whose work is tremendous!) and can be
downloaded on Francesco's Yahoo-Fronimo site.
Best wishes
Thomas
Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 20:36 schrieben Sie:
And also in the same vein...
The English consider 100 miles to be a long way.
Only Americans consider
Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able to depict
lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double functions
of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to smoothly
change function which is not possible in keyboard music.
Thomas Schall wrote:
Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able to depict
lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double functions
of bass notes in lute music. The octave stringing allows a voice to smoothly
change function which is not possible
Roman Turovsky wrote:
On Jul 5, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
Thomas Schall wrote:
Actually I think staff notation (pitch related notation) is not able
to depict
lute music. Just as one example I would like to point you to double
functions
of bass notes in lute music.
Thomas Schall wrote:
that's my point! There notated as a bass (for instance a C ///a assuming
renaissance g-tuning) but there is also a c sounding an octave higher which
could be used to lead to a tone an octave higher and so on. Take a look at
italian early baroque music. This effect is used
Thomas,
So I assume that the c-minor prelude in tablature, is the only source
for this piece?
So that being said, I can't wait to get my hands on all this new lute
music Aurther Ness mentions, Byrd, Couprin, Vivaldi, etc. Does anyone know
where to find the original facsimiles?
Michael
Dear Craig,
Musical notation has been around for a thousand years, so when special
notation for guitar was invented 200 years ago that is surely recent. It's
even recent in the history of the guitar, which has been around since the
1400s.
Dear Arthur, the six string guitar, which has
Yes, that's the point. But editors of lute music tebnd to favor these days the
Schrade/Kohlhase grand staff. I think it works well with baroque lute music,as
Doug Smith and Tim Crawford have demonstrated in their Weiss edition, and as
Kohlhase demonstrated in te New Bach Edition. But for the
Michael,
the c-minor prelude is in staff notation NOT in tablature!
Vivaldi's lute conceros are written in staff notation, too. It was common to
write the lute part in staff notation for that kind of music. You'll find it
also in Fasch and others. I don't know about Byrd though ...
I could
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff),
but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff),
but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the
case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always
possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff),
but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my
I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small notes. Sometimes
I've used oneor two notes when a suspensionwasresolvedona lower stringand the
direct resolution wouldbe due to octave stringing.
I'm notgoing t postthis tothe list.
- Original Message -
From: Greg M.
It is in pitchnotationonthegrand staff. No original tablature survives.
- Original Message -
From: Arthur Ness
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Michael Thames ; Lutelist
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
I remember someone doing this with bar.guitar music.
RT
I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small notes.=A0
Sometimes I've used oneor two notes when a suspensionwasresolvedona
lower stringand the direct resolution wouldbe due to octave stringing.
=A0
I'm notgoing t
Dear Arthur,
I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
RT
On Jul 5, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Michael Thames wrote:
There is a belief in some quarters of the guitar world that the grand
staff is used for keyboard music so that each hand has a separate
staff.
Hence the Schrade
Actually, Jaques Gallot did so. I recall in an a minor prelude, he had
small notes for the octaves, large ones for the fundamentals. It was an
effect that he desired.
ed
At 06:55 PM 7/5/2005 -0400, Arthur Ness wrote:
I'venever seen any pieces wuiththe octave courses in small
notes.
Sor advocated grand staff for guitar music.
-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book of Perrine
BTW: It's absolute
Right, and when the same historians talk about things classical they are
talking about things roughly 2500 years old.
-Original Message-
From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 12:58 PM
To: Lutelist
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a
Indeed, notions of HIP, period instruments, etc. have gained common currency.
For example, there are musicians performing music inspired by classic rock who
eschew the use of digital processing in their sound production.
-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition. In music,
Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism. For example,
his first symphony (in C Major) begins with a C dominant seventh chord resolving
to an F major chord. Those who traditionally understood
Dear Arthur,
I feel compelled to apologize to you for this village-idiot.
RT
Trovosky, I know it's a little difficult for you to confirm or deny
your own existence's, let alone the existence of 18th century guitar music,
but stretch your intellect a little and really marvelous things
Right, and when the same historians talk about things classical they are
talking about things roughly 2500 years old
Earth to Stuart.earth to Stuart... are you there Stuart...hello!
hello! I think we lost him sir
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message
Arthur and any others who are tinterested:
Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below. I always assumed the pieces I
have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of
Byrd's other music. Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that
I can read? I'd love to get a
Arthur mentions Byrd's lute music below. I always assumed the pieces I
have seen in lute tab were 16th Century intabulations taken from some of
Byrd's other music. Has someone done an article on Byrd's lute music that
I can read? I'd love to get a list of the pieces and which manuscripts
they
One of the definitions of modernism is the rejection of tradition. In
music,
Beethoven is considered to be one of the touchstones of modernism.
Another definition of modernism something that came after, the
thing that came before.
In which case Stuart, were all in a moving
And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently
(the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is
always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on
grand staff), but if not Bach made the transcription. The question in my
In the case of BWV 1025, the style of the tablature is definitely that of
SLW. The movements, etc are typical of his late works. The JSB version
did some changes transpositions, etc. 1025 was previously listed as a
spurious work of JSB [prior to recent discovery of the concordance with
There might be a slight credential problem here.
BTW, Arthur, although I'm paid up on Django, and Italian tablature makes my
head go the wrong way up, even though it makes more sense, all credit to
Francesco for the German tablature on Fronimo - I'm too lazy to learn it,
but having it available
Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Is this Perrine Book published? Anyone here seen it? It sounds very
interesting.
you can download it from Richard Civiol's homepage:
http://www.ifrance.com/luth-librairie/index.htm?
Viele Grüße
Mathias
--
To get on or off this list see list information
There are two books of lute music by Perrine (first name unknown). Civiol's
web page just gives the introductory text with English
translation. Both books (1679 and 1680) are available in facsimile. My
former class mates Steve and Olga Immel have probably the most comprehensive
stock of music
Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on two staves.
That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch notation. Harps,
marimbas, hymns are notated on two staves, and we don't call that keyboard
notation, do we? Guitarists don't know that when you play a keyboard the
Is this Perrine Book published? Anyone here seen it? It sounds very
interesting.
Unlike most other lute pieces,
this one was transcribed by Perrine, a contemporary of the authors,
from tablatura to modern technique. This has made the Book a fabulous
interpretation tool for other pieces; a sort
Dear lutenists and lute enthusiasts,
We thought you'd be interested in hearing this: Louis Pernot, a French
lutenist who has been playing lute since he was thirteen, is about to
release a worldwide first. The recording of the Book of Perrine is a
seventeenth-century masterpiece, recorded in
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