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At 17:54 31-07-00 , Ricardo wrote:
. My own view is that this problem is (partly) due to the
fact that the gay men who control the fashion are not interested in
real women but prefer them to look asexual or androgynous.
I agree entirely. In fact, I've been spouting this view, for years.
Greetings Economists,
Joanna Sheldon writes,
Joanna,
At 17:54 31-07-00 , Ricardo wrote:
.. My own view is that this problem is (partly) due to the
fact that the gay men who control the fashion are not interested in
real women but prefer them to look asexual or androgynous.
I agree entirely.
En relación a [PEN-L:37] what is 'orange'?Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R,
el 31 Jul 00, a las 12:33, Stephen E Philion dijo:
el 31 Jul 00, a las 9:48, Stephen E Philion dijo:
Nestor's sounding pretty orange these days...
Steve
Since the quip is on myself, what is this of "sounding
I agree entirely. In fact, I've been spouting this view, for years. I'd be
interesteed to know whether anyone has any good arguments against it.
How 'bout that it's stupid and ahistorical? Or that it ignores straight or female
fashion designers --Hilfiger, Miyaki, Claiborne, Lauren? Or
At 17:54 31-07-00 , Ricardo wrote:
. My own view is that this problem is (partly) due to the
fact that the gay men who control the fashion are not interested in
real women but prefer them to look asexual or androgynous.
I agree entirely. In fact, I've been spouting this view, for years. I'd
You always get a rise outa me, Doyle - dunno how you do it. Here, I don't
even disagree with you across the board!
Ricardo gave us:
.. My own view is that this problem is (partly) due to the
fact that the gay men who control the fashion are not interested in
real women but prefer them to look
Maybe I was too subtle. She picked stuff out of the air, and
misrepresented her sources. Read the Flanders piece.
Doug
Methinks it is you who's picking stuff out of the air making
accusations against Sommers without offering any evidence.
Ricardo, Doug offered the Flanders piece as evidence. I read it and it
sounded fairly convincing. We don't need to debate Flanders. My concern
is the way that you tend to personalize discussions. Attacking Doug seems
provocative and without any purpose except to cause dissention.
Such
I'd say that's a dereliction of your teaching duty (it amazes me that
you seem to feel proud of publishing this fact in a left-wing e-list
that is archived),
Who do the hell you think you are to tell me what my teaching
duties are? Is the archive thing a snitch-like threat against me?
Methinks it is you who's picking stuff out of the air making
accusations against Sommers without offering any evidence.
Extra! (fair.org)
September/October 1994
From the Women's Desk:
The "Stolen Feminism" Hoax: Anti-Feminist Attack Based on Error-Filled
Anecdotes
By Laura Flanders
In
BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, JULY 31, 2000
The U.S. economy once again beat predictions of a slowdown, logging robust
growth of 5.2 percent at an annual rate in the second quarter, the Commerce
Department reports. Consumer spending braked sharply to 3 percent -- after
surging 7.6 percent in the
I agree entirely. In fact, I've been spouting this view, for years. I'd
be interesteed to know whether anyone has any good arguments against it.
They don't except the irrational wannabe leftist pretences you find
in Doug, or the purist (=conservatist) reaction you find in Proyect,
or the
Ricardo, Doug offered the Flanders piece as evidence.
That's not evidence without telling us what Flanders says! Why
dont you tell us, or am I supposed to read the piece and the say
"Ah, Flanders is right!" Hear me pen-l, I read Flanders, she's right.
Case proven.
I read it and it
Hardin wasn't making a historical point, or to the extent he was, his real point can
be abstracted from historical examples to which it does not apply. Just because the
TOC can be defeated does not mean that Hardin or Coase (I leave aside Epstein) were
primitive ideologues who have not
Justin. not Jason. And I am certainly gratified that I "mostly" understood Michael's
point. --jks
In a message dated Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:18:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael
Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I should have been more clear. The Tragedy of the Commons suggests that
Knowing Ms. Sommers and her work, if she told me the sun was shining at noon, I would
have to check for myself and get several independent observers to confirm before I
believed it. She is a liar and the truth is not in her. and I do not say this because
I (the resident Hayekian!)
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
You obviously are too close-minded to pay attention to the
qualifications I made - that I skipped some gender sections, not all,
which I proudly did because I truly felt it was unfair to the males of
the class hammering them with *all* the patriarchal legacies of the
This is too complicated for them to follow; oh, I forgot, they are marxists, so
probably they do have a formula for you specifying what's the correct political line
that you should follow. I am sure that even some gays would agree with me - those who
are proud enough to see
The nonsense about a gay conspiracy to deform women goes back at least
to the 1940s -- which is as far back as my memory goes. Probably it goes
back further than that. It has the same intellectual integrity as the
Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Carrol
On 1 Aug 00, at 10:44, Louis Proyect wrote:
I meant to say "thanks" to Rob.
Although my concern is with Sommer's *War against Boys",
which I thought was what Flanders had criticized, I will still offer
some comments on this eventhoug I have not read Stolen
Feminism.
September/October
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How about some evidence that the ultra thin model began with their ascendance?
A model once explained to me that the industry prefers thin models
because corporeal terrain like breasts "interferes with the line of
the clothes."
And, in my other favorite quote about
Upholders of the "gay designers" theory of women's fashions try to deny that they
are claiming a conspiracy -- but given all the other factors that operate in the
industry, the only coherent way in which the gay designers theory can be defended
is by charging or implying a conscious conspiracy.
The Boston Globe, May 19, 2000, Friday
BY ALEX BEAM, GLOBE STAFF
In the current issue of The Atlantic Monthly, Christina Hoff Sommers levels
a withering accusation at Harvard professor Carol Gilligan: Sommers says
she tried four times to access the research materials Gilligan used for her
At 04:55 AM 8/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
At 17:54 31-07-00 , Ricardo wrote:
. My own view is that this problem is (partly) due to the
fact that the gay men who control the fashion are not interested in
real women but prefer them to look asexual or androgynous.
I agree entirely. In fact, I've been
At 11:17 AM 8/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
Incidentally, Doyle is probably right on the term "homophobia." Yoshie and
I had a friendly argument on this a couple years ago. At the time I argued
for "homophobia" rather than "heterosexism" mostly on the ground that the
proliferation of "isms" created
Ricardo, you must stop this way of posting immediately or get off. You seem
to think that you have a special mission of elevating the "totalitarians."
Doug Henwood wrote:
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
You obviously are too close-minded to pay attention to the
qualifications I made - that I
I have been having computer troubles, so I have not been reading the mail
in order, but I think that this is Ricardo's farewell to the list.
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
Who do the hell you think you are to tell me what my teaching
duties are?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Upholders of the "gay designers" theory of women's fashions
For starters, I said "partly due". As Rob said, there's an aesthetic
gay dimension here which any open-minded person will at least
debate.
try to deny that they
are claiming a conspiracy --
It follows that it is you who is
Do most fashion models look to be androgynous or asexual? I think Twiggys are
rare these days. I will do a study on that in order to enable my voyeuristic
tendencies, assuming I obtain sufficient donations from Pen-lers I have looked
at a few of the fashion shows on TV and the females parading
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
You obviously are too close-minded to pay attention to the
qualifications I made - that I skipped some gender sections, not all,
which I proudly did because I truly felt it was unfair to the males of
the class hammering them with *all* the patriarchal legacies
Forwarded message:
From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Aug 01 15:03:38 2000
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 12:15:00 +0200
From: Sven R Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: Roskilde University, Dept of Social Sciences
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]
The NY [Times] lead emphasizes the enthusiastically received [US
Republican Party] convention speech last night of Gen. Colin Powell ...
Everybody notes that when George W. Bush was piped in to the proceedings
via satellite, he hinted that Powell would be serving in his Cabinet. The
NYT says
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 11:57AM
A model once explained to me that the industry prefers thin models
because corporeal terrain like breasts "interferes with the line of
the clothes."
And, in my other favorite quote about the industry, an early issue of
Spy magazine quoted a long-time
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 12:17PM
Upholders of the "gay designers" theory of women's fashions try to deny that they
are claiming a conspiracy -- but given all the other factors that operate in the
industry, the only coherent way in which the gay designers theory can be defended
is by
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 12:44PM
is there anyone out there who's an expert on Latin or Greek? "Homophobia"
literally means "fear of the same." Is there a Latin or Greek term that
literally means "hatred and fear of same-sex lovers"?
("Lumpenproletariat" combines German and Latin, I
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 01:04PM
Again, misreading, misquoting: I consciously said "the fashion",
not "the fashion industry" - something which should be clear to you
by now since the conspirators here have been citing this post over
and over, no doubt wishing that as many people as
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 01:16PM
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
You obviously are too close-minded to pay attention to the
qualifications I made - that I skipped some gender sections, not all,
which I proudly did because I truly felt it was unfair to the males of
the class hammering
At 02:30 PM 8/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
CB Maybe we should invent an English word or phrase. Latin and Greek are
"old". German is German. Prejudice against homosexuals.
hey, what's wrong with a little pretentious phraseology with professorial
panache?
but what about "hatred-of-gays"?
(Of
On Tue, 1 Aug 2000, Charles Brown wrote:
the crimes of past generations. But I want to say something else:
that you will hardly get young Americans interested in improving
race/gender/class relations unless you give them some pride in
what their country has indeed accomplished in its
Forwarded message:
From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Aug 01 18:59:27 2000
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "Colander, David" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: position for the spring semester
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 13:28:39 -0400
I'm with Nathan, here. (There, Nathan, that should make you reconsider!) It is
political suicide to go around talking about "fascist Amerikkka," burning flags, etc.,
unless the only people you are interested in organizing those already terminally
disaffected and utterly alienated from the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One wants people to have pride in their country
Why?
Doug
Doug asks, why should we want pople to be proud of their country?
Not least because they are going to, most of them, and it will be on out terms or
someone else's, so whose do you prefer? Look, intellectually speaking, I can
understand that most group identifications don't make a lot of sense.
On Tue, 1 Aug 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
concatenation of evil?" One wants people to have pride in their
country, but for the right things. For the rest, as Norman Thomas
said, "My country, right its wrongs."
Or as Thomas also said, "Wash the flag, don't burn it."
I think it's worth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
One wants people to have pride in their country
Why?
Doug
How about a sense of political responsibility, instead of pride, for
what history has made "one's country"? The knowledge of history,
including that of oppressions, is necessary to foster a proper sense
of
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 03:55PM
Nor am I immune When I took my kids to Gettysburg, I quite involuntarily found tears
in my eyes and a catch in my throat when I saw flowers heaped on Little Round Top at
the site where Chamberlain's 20th Maine Volunteers held off the Alabamans on Day
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/01/00 04:12PM
"Communism is Twenthieth Century Americanism" may have been an extreme
version of this approach, but it is the right direction.
CB: As is often the case, the CPUSA anticipates today's left on an issue, but today's
left doesn't want to
Justin wrote:
Doug asks, why should we want pople to be proud of their country?
Not least because they are going to, most of them, and it will be on
out terms or someone else's, so whose do you prefer? Look,
intellectually speaking, I can understand that most group
identifications don't make
Ricardo wrote:
Maybe I was too subtle. She picked stuff out of the air, and
misrepresented her sources. Read the Flanders piece.
Doug
Methinks it is you who's picking stuff out of the air making
accusations against Sommers without offering any evidence.
At 5:34 PM -0300 7/31/00,
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Speaking of evidence, can Ricardo offer evidence for his insinuation
that studies that have found "for every male diagnosed as suffering
from depression, two to six times as many females are so diagnosed"
are inaccurate? What's his ground for thinking so? Is it
[from a draft report also given at the July 12-13 conference on The Next
Financial Panic]
http://www.cfr.org/financialvulnerability/simulation/sim_scenario.html
Ian
Probably somewhere in between. I am a pragmatist, but no pomo And unlike Rorty, I do
not believe that "we Americans" have a unitary set of values that are the best in the
world and that cannot be criticized except around the margins. (You have have read my
paper on this.) I have been insusting
For good criticism of Gilligan see also a fine book called the Mismeasure of Woman, I
forget the author, and Susan Faludi's first book. --jks
In a message dated Tue, 1 Aug 2000 5:11:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Yoshie Furuhashi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ricardo wrote:
Maybe I was too
Michael- Could you post this to pen-l? Thanks.
The Kansas City Race Class Health Forum Planning Committee is looking
for
suggestions for a keynote speaker. We could bring someone in from out
of
town.
Suggestions of people who can speak to these issues? Thanks (e-mail
offlist
is probably
From Christian to Ricardo:
This is too complicated for them to follow; oh, I forgot, they are
marxists, so probably they do have a formula for you specifying
what's the correct political line that you should follow. I am sure
that even some gays would agree with me - those who are proud
At 03:26 PM 08/01/2000 -0400, you wrote:
Before the Gulf War, I was giving an antiwar talk, and some young man, a
ROTC type, questioned my patriotism. I replied, "Would I be doing this if
I didn't care about my country?" He aapologied and admitted, maybe not.
Wasn't that better than saying,
At 04:29 PM 08/01/2000 -0500, you wrote:
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Speaking of evidence, can Ricardo offer evidence for his insinuation
that studies that have found "for every male diagnosed as suffering
from depression, two to six times as many females are so diagnosed"
are inaccurate?
At 04:12 PM 08/01/2000 -0400, you wrote:
I think it's worth distinguishing patriotism from nationalism or chavinism.
yeah, I'm a patriot. You're a nationalist. He's a chauvinist.
the old semantics game.
;-)
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~JDevine
At 06:36 PM 08/01/2000 -0400, you wrote:
For good criticism of Gilligan see also a fine book called the Mismeasure
of Woman, I forget the author
Carol Tavris. It's a good book (though it leaves important stuff out).
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~JDevine
Want to download Justin's thesis? Henwood's latest article in the
Monthly Review etc.? For a fee of course. Just go here:
http://search.contentville.com/content/archives.asp
How do these people manage to do this without infringing
copyright? Canadian Dimension is one of the magazines in their
In a message dated 8/1/00 8:40:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Want to download Justin's thesis? Henwood's latest article in the
Monthly Review etc.? For a fee of course. Just go here:
http://search.contentville.com/content/archives.asp
How do these people manage
Actually it seems that theses must be purchased unbound (about 30 dollars US) or
sprialbound, about twice that. Articles can be downloaded it seems. All theses
seem to be equal in price terms. My thesis "Fatalism" is no cheaper than theses
with paragraph-long titles.
Cheers, Ken Hanly
[EMAIL
I'm just reading a marvelous book "Workin' on the Chain Gang" by Walter
Mosley, better known as a mystery writer. Wonderful book--- and I"ll
write to Pen-L about it later unless someone tells me it has already been
discussed and I missed it.
Mosley writes about race and class from a
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
1. The bourgeoisie propagated a moral ideal of Self-Control that
legitimated their existence as distinct from superior to
aristocrats, proletarians, pre-capitalist "primitives," all of
whom were portrayed as "lazy, dissolute, improvident." The bodily
expression
Ken Hanly wrote:
Want to download Justin's thesis? Henwood's latest article in the
Monthly Review etc.? For a fee of course. Just go here:
http://search.contentville.com/content/archives.asp
How do these people manage to do this without infringing
copyright? Canadian Dimension is one of the
From: "Ken Hanly" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Want to download Justin's thesis? Henwood's latest article in the
Monthly Review etc.? For a fee of course. Just go here:
http://search.contentville.com/content/archives.asp
How do these people manage to do this without infringing
copyright? Canadian
Hey, my dissertation is on there too! Back when my middle name was
"Nicholson"! Maybe someone will read the damned thing. I know my committee
just barely did so. I must say I value having it read more than any income
I might get from Bell Howell. I might even buy a hard-bound edition for
G'day Carrol ( yeah, I know you don't read my posts, but that doesn't mean
one of us can't be civil, eh?)
The disproportion in rates of clinical depression between men and women is
one of those facts so widely known and accepted that like the fact that
Lansing is the capital of Michigan it does
Also, check out Baker, Nicholson. 2000. "Deadline: A Desperate Plea to
Stop Trashing of America's Historic Newspapers." New Yorker (24 July): pp.
42-61, which complements the story in my last post.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel.
I'm enclosing the URL for the story about Bell and Howell. Perhaps Carrol can
offer some background background to the story. As an undergraduate at Michigan,
I was told that the owner of the University Microfilms was on the Board of
Regents and had all sources sweetheart deals. My college
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
1. The bourgeoisie propagated a moral ideal of Self-Control that
legitimated their existence as distinct from superior to
aristocrats, proletarians, pre-capitalist "primitives," all of
whom were portrayed as "lazy, dissolute, improvident." The
bodily expression
Rob wrote:
G'day Carrol ( yeah, I know you don't read my posts, but that doesn't mean
one of us can't be civil, eh?)
The disproportion in rates of clinical depression between men and women is
one of those facts so widely known and accepted that like the fact that
Lansing is the capital of
"My child!" he exclaimed in anguish, -- "who will save my child? A
thousand -- ten thousand dollars to any one who will save him!"
[Not hearing the offer, Ragged Dick jumps in the water, motivated by
human compassion and saves the little boy. How does he collect his
"ten thousand dollars"
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