[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Inputs and outputs, though. I certainly wouldn't want
> to live in a precapitalist economy or in most forms of
> Actually Existing Socialism,
After Marx returned from a vacation in Germany in which he had been well
entertained by some friends in the aristocracy there,
The trick is not getting in until 10:30 a.m.
-Original Message-
From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Henwood
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 10:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Job flight
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Inputs and outputs, though. I certai
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Inputs and outputs, though. I certainly wouldn't want
to live in a precapitalist economy or in most forms of
Actually Existing Socialism, but one argument that I
always think ought to get more traction is that
capitalism has singularly failed to shorten the working
day.
I
Inputs and outputs, though. I certainly wouldn't want
to live in a precapitalist economy or in most forms of
Actually Existing Socialism, but one argument that I
always think ought to get more traction is that
capitalism has singularly failed to shorten the working
day. A lot of people intuitivel
Gene Coyle wrote:
>Thinking about job flight? Here's your reward.
Thanks, Gene. I'll enter. I won the last essay contest I entered that was
announced on Pen-L: Robin (terrorism futures market) Hanson's "Has
Privatization gone far enough?" Since there are eight prizes in this one, a
$5,000 "show"
"While there are no hard local numbers, about 300,000 jobs nationwide have
been lost since 2000, according to Forrester Research Inc."
Well, "while there are no hard numbers," about 10,000,000 jobs have been
lost in the U.S. due to excessive hours of work (compared to Europe).
Candidate Kerry say
ravi wrote:
come on now. its not about your job against my job, and i am not trying
to defend "indian programmers" or some such identity group. if i do go
back, i hope i will be more empowered to participate in the real world,
rather than have to sit in a cube and write uninspiring software.
No, n
Ravi wrote:
in some cases, this complexity is
willful... take the current obsession with XML and building layers and
layers on top of it.
Sounds like the project I'm working on, which combines websphere, XML,
Struts, java and javascript. It has taken me a year to figure out how all
the pieces fit t
joanna bujes wrote:
>
You're saying that writing a program or creating a software product in
three different countries is no different than creating a pre-fabricated
house in three different countries: the roof in the US, the window
frames in China, and the walls in India. I think though that fitti
The great, sort of, and humbling, definitely, thing about a market
economy is that it puts a dollar sign alongside all endeavors and makes
them equivalent in that great democracy of the world market where
lawyers, guns, and money make sure your vote counts because they're
doing the counting.
So w
You're saying that writing a program or creating a software product in
three different countries is no different than creating a pre-fabricated
house in three different countries: the roof in the US, the window
frames in China, and the walls in India. I think though that fitting a
pre-fabricated ho
In a message dated 3/28/2004 3:28:28 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
That's Panglossian political economy. The destruction or creation ofjobs is not a technical function, but a social one. The expulsion oflabor power from the production process is essential to theexpropriat
Yeah, that's an incredible salary. I know some top flight programmers
with eons of experience...none of whom make more than 130,000.
Joanna
The article is probably bullshit. It reminds me of those articles about
auto workers who make that kind of money, or other skilled blue-collar
workers. It turn
ravi wrote:
i am not an expert on the matter, so this is just my opinion: i believe
the above effect is temporary. programming is not difficult and it is
well suited for outsourcing. those going through outsourcing disaster
will learn from their mistakes... already, i know of many fellow indians
i
joanna bujes wrote:
The truth is they don't have a clue on how to manage intellectual labor.
joanna, my friend, why is this not an elitist attitude? what is so
intellectual about programming? it could be, but it doesn't need to be,
and it seldom is. i.e., there are very neat solutions for prorammi
Doug Henwood wrote:
joanna bujes wrote:
More interesting is the thesis that outsourcing is profitable for
hi-tech companies. I wonder how they figure out that profit. The very
large hi tech company I work for has outsourced a number of projects to
India and China. I know first hand that the result
Michael Perelman wrote:
That is the standard answer in the economic literature. What would
have happened in
the post-World War II American economy without the federal
government to prop up the
job market?
It's always some prop, isn't it? This idea that capitalism would have
failed 10, 40, 100, 15
That is the standard answer in the economic literature. What would have happened in
the post-World War II American economy without the federal government to prop up the
job market?
On Sun, Mar 28, 2004 at 04:09:23PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote:
> Michael Perelman wrote:
>
> >Supposedly, new techno
Hi Michael,
I think the jury's still out on this one. In certain national contexts (usually
advanced capitalist ones), the economists are probably not eating crow.
(Basso's work shows that working-time is increasing in advanced capitalism) At
the global scale, (the only proper level to examine thi
Supposedly, new technology lowers prices, which spurs new demand, which
reemploy as
the workers. I'm not saying I accept this argument, but I have not seen
many
economists eating crow.
___-
That's Panglossian political economy. The destruction or creation of
jobs is not a technic
Michael Perelman wrote:
Supposedly, new technology lowers prices, which spurs new demand,
which reemploy as
the workers. I'm not saying I accept this argument, but I have not seen many
economists eating crow.
Several centuries of capitalist history are on the side of the
non-crow-eaters, no? I li
The current explanation that job flight this response to improved technology races to
questions for me.
Virtually every economics textbook I have seen dismisses the idea that new technology
can destroy jobs. The most reputable counterargument came from David Ricardo in the
19th-century. Few econ
Doug Henwood wrote:
Compared to what? It's hard to argue with its capacity to grow,
innovate, and produce cheaper commodities over the centuries - at a
high social and ecological cost, for sure, but I don't think you can
win the "efficiency" argument from the left. It has to be on other
grounds.
I
Doug Henwood wrote:
Compared to what? It's hard to argue with its capacity to grow,
innovate, and produce cheaper commodities over the centuries - at a
high social and ecological cost, for sure, but I don't think you can
win the "efficiency" argument from the left. It has to be on other
grounds.
T
joanna bujes wrote:
"The truth is they don't have a clue on how to manage intellectual labor.
They try to do it as it were an assembly line. Doesn't work. Offsourcing Hi-
tech means managing intellectual labor accross great geographical, cultural,
and sometimes linguistic divides. Not what I would
Not really. Initially the H1 and L1 visas facilitated the temporary and
some permanent import of skilled workers. This was pre-Y2K era on-site
work. The work was largely low-end--maintenance, debugging, some nominal
systems integration. Physical presence was vital. Now with learning and
(India
joanna bujes wrote:
The "efficacy" of the capitalist model is more myth than fact.
Compared to what? It's hard to argue with its capacity to grow,
innovate, and produce cheaper commodities over the centuries - at a
high social and ecological cost, for sure, but I don't think you can
win the "effic
Glad to hear it. If I told you the actual details of these disasters,
you would not believe it...plus it would take a lot of time.
The truth is they don't have a clue on how to manage intellectual labor.
They try to do it as it were an assembly line. Doesn't work. Offsourcing
Hi-tech means managing
joanna bujes wrote:
More interesting is the thesis that outsourcing is profitable for
hi-tech companies. I wonder how they figure out that profit. The very
large hi tech company I work for has outsourced a number of projects to
India and China. I know first hand that the results of this off-shorin
is it possible that a lot of the out-sourcing is a substitute for importing skilled
workers (under the special visas whose name I've forgotten) to do the work here?
Jim D.
-Original Message-
From: joanna bujes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sun 3/28/2004 9:44 A
Some experts see benefits being derived from outsourcing. Exporting
routinized jobs such as programming can lower costs for companies and
give them the cash to invest in higher-skilled, more innovative jobs in
the United States.
_
This is such a joke. I won't even comment about how
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