Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Pascal Costanza wrote: >> >> >> > Parallel GC is no problem and implemented. >> >> >> Which CL implementations have a parallel GC? I'm a little late to the conversation, but we have been experimenting with a multi-threaded garbage collector that runs mostly in parallel with the lisp applicati

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Svante Carl v. Erichsen wrote on Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 12:16:09PM +0100: > Hi! > > I vaguely remember having read that you do that. I'm still wondering > why, though. I guess that you wrote about it, but I can't find it right > now. > > So, if it's not because Common Lisp is not seen as ???prod

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> Pascal Costanza wrote: > > > This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. > > I'd be curious to know if there are particularities in CL itself that > make this difficult, or if it's simply because there's no manpower to

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

ofessionals Subject: Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus Pascal Costanza wrote on Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 04:17:56PM +0100: > > > Parallel GC is no problem and implemented. > > > Which CL implementations have a parallel GC? Clasp (via Boehm GC and MPS). I

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Pascal Costanza wrote on Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 04:17:56PM +0100: > > > Parallel GC is no problem and implemented. > > > Which CL implementations have a parallel GC? Clasp (via Boehm GC and MPS). I thought SBCL was there, but I just checked, not yet. I think Google is pushing for a parallel GC

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Den tors 3 dec. 2020 20:58Pascal Costanza skrev: > > We evaluated Go and Java for their concurrent, parallel GCs, and C++ for > its reference counting. Interestingly, reference counting is often > described as more efficient than GC, but in our case that’s not true: > Because there is a huge obje

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

>From Franz's doc on Allegro CL https://franz.com/support/documentation/10.0/doc/gc.htm#multi-threading-2 On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 10:29 Pascal Costanza wrote: > > > Parallel GC is no problem and implemented. > > > Which CL implementations have a parallel GC? > > > Pascal > > -- > Pascal Costanza >

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> Parallel GC is no problem and implemented. Which CL implementations have a parallel GC? Pascal -- Pascal Costanza

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I've used ABCL very happily as a high-level way to script the JVM, and also as a good way to explore what's going on in a big Java program, using the REPL. But for the AI planner I maintain and develop (GitHub.com/shop-planner), ABCL simply won't function: it's wildly too slow compared with SB

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Perhaps this will change with a future JVM with Value Types and with a future ABCL making use of them, but at the moment, that's the sad story. On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 at 15:51, Pascal Costanza wrote: > We tested an implementation in Java, and the memory footprint of the JVM > is huge. Where C++, Com

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Pascal discussed "... the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage collectors in Common Lisp implementations". We were using Lispworks 7 and retrieving lots of data via Oracle's SQL driver prior to building the application. I introduced multi-thread parallelism, attempting to reduce overall time.

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Didier Verna wrote on Thu, Dec 03, 2020 at 03:47:02PM +0100: > Pascal Costanza wrote: > > > This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. > > I'd be curious to know if there are particularities in CL itself that > make thi

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> On 3 Dec 2020, at 15:47, Didier Verna wrote: > > Pascal Costanza wrote: > >> This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage >> collectors in Common Lisp implementations. > > I'd be curious to know if there are particularities in CL itself that > make this difficult,

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Pascal Costanza wrote: > This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. I'd be curious to know if there are particularities in CL itself that make this difficult, or if it's simply because there's no manpower to improve the

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

We tested an implementation in Java, and the memory footprint of the JVM is huge. Where C++, Common Lisp, and Go could comfortably run in below 256 GB RAM, Java needed more like 350-400 GB RAM. That was not a good tradeoff. I don’t expect an implementation in ABCL to solve this (which is not ABC

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> On 3 Dec 2020, at 14:24, Dave Cooper wrote: > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 7:59 AM Pascal Costanza > wrote: > This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. > > > Thanks for the interesting explan

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> How automatic (or not) is the translation to Go? Have you built some > manner translator on either the CL side or the Go side? > /s/manner translator/manner of translator/

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. ABCL on the JVM works pretty good these days. It’s not as fast as SBCL, but much more robust from a runtime (and GC) perspective. Manfred > Am 03.12.2020 um 13:57 schrieb Pasca

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 7:59 AM Pascal Costanza wrote: > This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. Thanks for the interesting explanation. How automatic (or not) is the translation to Go? Have you built some manner transl

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Super interesting, thanks for that! —S On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 8:00 AM Pascal Costanza wrote: > This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage > collectors in Common Lisp implementations. The CL version of elPrep was > actually still a tad faster than any of the C++, Go, o

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

This was primarily for the lack of good parallel, concurrent garbage collectors in Common Lisp implementations. The CL version of elPrep was actually still a tad faster than any of the C++, Go, or Java versions, but we had to work hard to avoid long GC pauses. elPrep allocates a lot of memory, a

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I’m very curious about this, too. —Scott > On Dec 3, 2020, at 6:19 AM, Svante Carl v. Erichsen > wrote: > > So, if it's not because Common Lisp is not seen as “production ready”, > why rewrite instead of just adding the production parts (I guess > hardening, monitoring, logging, documentation

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Hi! I vaguely remember having read that you do that. I'm still wondering why, though. I guess that you wrote about it, but I can't find it right now. So, if it's not because Common Lisp is not seen as “production ready”, why rewrite instead of just adding the production parts (I guess hardening

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

In my opinion, prototyping in Common Lisp, and then translating to a different programming language for creating the final product, is a perfectly valid professional use of Common Lisp. It’s useful to know which programming languages may be good targets for such an approach. This is, of course,

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

> then you tell me Tim, where do actual Common Lispers go? > you tell me Dan* (sorry, not sure where Tim came from -- I think I got you confused with someone else who also resigned from the ALU board years ago).

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Where else do Common Lispers go to talk shop, whether CL or something else? To me, Common Lispers "talking shop" by definition means talking about CL or related topics, not an open-ended "something else." I would turn that question around and ask "where else do Common Lispers go for unapologetic

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Laughing Water wrote: My only request would be that if this discussion moves elsewhere, I’d like to know where it goes so I can follow it. I'll second that. I really value the experience and opinions of this community, and appreciate the occasional random news update.

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I'll also note that Kenny's initial posting was just trying to drum up interest in this music coding idea from individuals he respects in this mailing list which happens to be a common-lisp one; fair enough. But even Kenny suggested having the actual discussion elsewhere (he suggested google group

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Well i'm not meaning to be a wet blanket but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of places to discuss "this language is better than that language because of this or that feature" other than a common lisp - specific email list. It seems self-evident to me that a "professional common lisp" mailing li

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I occupy a very humble position in the Common Lisp community, but FWIW I think it’s reasonable to either include or exclude this discussion from this list. It’s a subject of interest to the CL professional community but it’s more about Lisp or Lisp-like offshoots or alternatives than about CL it

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

May I respectfully suggest that you guys take this non-CL discussion elsewhere than the "professional common lisp" mailing list. -- My Best, Dave Cooper, david.cooper@gen.works genworks.com, gendl.org +1 248-330-2979

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Hi, I would also consider Go. It’s actually a really good language in my opinion. It’s one of the few “modern” languages that gets lambda expressions correct. (No funky exceptional behavior, you can assign to variables in the lexical environment, and the correct thing happens.) It has a “gener

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Rust is C++ done right. At this point, I have several stacks based on what I'm doing: * Web back end – Python/Django * Web front end – Javascript/React * ML/AI (as a "client") – Python * Systems programming – Rust On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:57 AM Marco Antoniotti wrote: > I second what Scott

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I second what Scott said. Julia is not "fringe" and I am thinking that - too late probably - that is a Very Good Thing (tm) Apart from that, Rust was described in "Nature". You cannot get more mainstream than that. Ciao Marco PS Me, I am checking out PL/I On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:52 AM Scott

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe language (*), use a *good* fringe language. (*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more. On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels wrote: > Hey Scott, > > Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Hey Scott, Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways (better type system, package system, better compilation model, cross-language integration). It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Congratulations on the strong results! I feel for those teachers suddenly required to teach programming when that is something they may never have done. Your materials will be a great entry for them. Good luck with the fall study! On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 5:03 PM Alexander Repenning < alexander.rep

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

No fitting all your concern but * simple to use for novices * combining music with programming (Computational Music Thinking) * web-based paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341079457_Computational_Music_Thinking_Patterns_Connecting_Music_Education_with_Computer_Science_

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Jonathan Bachrach, one of the early Dylan implementors, worked on this while he was at IRCAM, I believe. On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 10:07 AM d...@refined-audiometrics.com < d...@refined-audiometrics.com> wrote: > I just spotted this during some perusing… IRCAM, in Paris, France, > develops lots of di

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I just spotted this during some perusing… IRCAM, in Paris, France, develops lots of different tools for avant garde music creation. They have this thing called OpenMusic, very simiilar to Max. But in the lower right of the page they have our mascot… http://repmus.ircam.fr/openmusic/home

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I just spotted this during some perusing… IRCAM, in Paris, France, develops lots of different tools for avant garde music creation. They have this thing called OpenMusic, very simiilar to Max. But in the lower right of the page they have our mascot… http://repmus.ircam.fr/openmusic/home

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new ground, and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro system can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its core language. Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Hey, Daniel. Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say! Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over algorithms as they do the music,

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Hi Ken, I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential developers. It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many other programming activities. Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm convinced that a web-based platform is th

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

"actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice live coding. I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL. Thx! -hk On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson wrote: > https://github.com/byul

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider client for CommonLisp " Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is actively under development. Andy On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton wrote:

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit of a showstopper there. We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PIT

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little purpose in reinventing any portion of what they have done. I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take off -- no need then to fret over platform, power will matter. Thx! On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard wrote: > Ken, > > Are you familiar with Opusmodu

Re: Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Ken, Are you familiar with Opusmodus? It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window system. Mac only. Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. G

Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on creating career opportunities for African Americans. The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation of music. I know nothing about music the