Plus I just picked up a Saluki. Just waiting on it to ship to me.
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 9:12:42 PM UTC-4 Johnny Alien wrote:
> I would have bid but I don't think it would be a great fit size wise.
> Shame because it went low!
>
> On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 4:34:03 PM UTC-4 Joe Bernard
I would have bid but I don't think it would be a great fit size wise.
Shame because it went low!
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 4:34:03 PM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
> Bid on it, Johnny! I love the color, I have a soft spot for early
> solid-color Rivs with the barely visible speared Rivendell
Agreed a beautiful All Rounder, nice find, Steve
On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 6:31 PM John in PDX wrote:
> Agree, fairly low price for all included, and for an early model. Here's
> one I've shared before, picked up last year around labor day. Single color
> anti-flash...
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June
Sold for $1267 + 150 shipping. That's a CRAZY low price. Yikes!
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 1:34:03 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
> Bid on it, Johnny! I love the color, I have a soft spot for early
> solid-color Rivs with the barely visible speared Rivendell decal..very
> monochrome and
Bid on it, Johnny! I love the color, I have a soft spot for early
solid-color Rivs with the barely visible speared Rivendell decal..very
monochrome and anti-flash. Also love the period "from the catalogue" parts:
Phil 6-speed rear hub and Suntour front, stem shifters. It doesn't get any
more
55 makes sense based on the photos. I was looking at the size in the
"specifics" section.
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 2:15:23 PM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
> The description says 54cm C-to-C ST, 57 TT. By Riv sizing standards this
> is a 55 or 56cm frame.
>
> Joe Bernard
>
> On Tuesday, June
The description says 54cm C-to-C ST, 57 TT. By Riv sizing standards this is
a 55 or 56cm frame.
Joe Bernard
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 10:10:14 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:
> It says 21" for the frame but that doesn't look like a 53cm frame. I
> couldn't get info on standover too. Could
It says 21" for the frame but that doesn't look like a 53cm frame. I
couldn't get info on standover too. Could be quite a deal though.
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 11:40:06 AM UTC-4 John in PDX wrote:
> Perhaps outed already, but there is a poorly photographed, but very nice
> early Riv All
Rivendell probably used what they called their "short horizontals;" those
were their stock dropout in the beginning; my 1999 Joe Starck had them, the
they rather severely limited the amount of axle movement. I had to file 2-3
mm off the back ends for chain takeup with the gears I wanted;
Indeed, those Melvins are great for doing a two-speed with a big and bailout
ring. I'm going to set my custom up that way with a front derailer. That's a
nice AR!
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Good eye. Not much horizontal travel on this dropout, and I like to keep it
all the way back to give the tire as much room as possible. Will also make
cog-swapping easier should I want to do that, or even run a second front
ring.
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 1:16:41 PM UTC-5, Benz,
It looks like you have a horizontal dropout All-Rounder, so why the Paul
Melvin device?
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I agree that Grant's bikes have continued to be at least a decade ahead of
their time, throughout history, which is impressive but also has surely had
a negative effect on sales. The 650B bikes that Grant was building in the
early 2000's are hugely marketable now, but Grant has moved on to
@iamkeith
Is the video of Grant speaking at Rivelo available online? Would like to watch
that.
Thanks
Mike in Austin
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On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 9:46:53 AM UTC-7, Connor wrote:
>
> I always thought the XOs and early All-Rounders were way ahead of their
> time. Perhaps too far ahead of their time? Back then 28 mm tires were
> considered huge for road bikes. How times have changed! Question for those
> who
On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 8:46:53 AM UTC-8, Connor wrote:
>
> I always thought the XOs and early All-Rounders were way ahead of their
> time. Perhaps too far ahead of their time? Back then 28 mm tires were
> considered huge for road bikes. How times have changed! Question for those
> who
THey certainly won't fit on the '93 (canti), let alone '92 (caliper) XO-1.
And I doubt they'll fit on the All Rounder. For a nice budget ride
(alternative to 26" all road custom), consider a nice NORBA-type very late
'80s or very early '90s (pre-susp-fork) high quality hardtail. I "all
roundered"
I always thought the XOs and early All-Rounders were way ahead of their
time. Perhaps too far ahead of their time? Back then 28 mm tires were
considered huge for road bikes. How times have changed! Question for those
who have one: Do Rat Trap Pass tires fit? Thanks!
On Saturday, November 23,
Ug it's the perfect size for me, and it's basically my ideal
commuter bike. But I am nowhere near done paying off the Hillborne I
bought only a month ago!
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Oh I disagree about the derailer: it's pretty, it matches the vintage of the
frame and it's derailing! No one will ever know I'm not shifting it
You're boosting your Quickbeam? Excellent choice! Email me when you get a
chance k, I'd like to hear about the motor and whatnot.
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Joe,
Much approved. Only issue is that is to nice of a derailer to only serve as
bling. Enjoy the gravel; enjoy the non-e Riv.
Going to E-bike one of my Rivendells today; making an E-Ent.
Will let you know how it goes!
Ryan “influenced by Joe’s e-converting bikes” Hankinson
West Michigan
Bonus points for the Schrader valves!
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I have RTP by Compass/RH, both regular and Extra light that measure 52 mm
wide, on Cliffhangers they go out to 55, my 2.35 Big Apples measure 58 mm
wide on Sun Rhyno Lite rims. Steve
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 7:43 PM Kellie wrote:
> I have 2.35 RTP on my Waterford Atlantis, and fenders!
>
> On
I have 2.35 RTP on my Waterford Atlantis, and fenders!
On Sunday, September 29, 2019 at 10:14:36 AM UTC-7, Jake P wrote:
>
> Craig, Joe,
>
> Confirm what sie tires yall are squeezing on these bikes? I can't seem to
> fit anything larger than a 2.1
>
> Craig, those look like RTPs?? Suprised to
Yes indeed, Jake, I already chopped an inch off. Partially to stretch the reach
a bit and partially to get those maddening flared ends off..my cromoly Boscos
are a bit oversized and getting levers and grips on there was a project!
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Wild!
BTW - I've found with my Boscos, they got much more comfortable when I
trimmed them down 3/4s an inch, and angled them a bt furhter down. The
top tube of my A/R is just too short to comfortable rock all 9(?) inches of
that back sweep! Really thinking about rocking some billies next.
Thanks Joe. Will look forward to some future ride
descriptionsJim DMassachusetts
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Jim: The cost at the moment is high, all I'm seeing on searches is $1749, which
is full price. I've seen them as low as $1400 this summer, though, so keep an
eye out. I got mine used. (Keep in mind the whole motor-and-battery system is
in the hub, a lot of low-price hub kits out there list
Could you share a bit about how the wheel works and what it
costs?Jim DMassachusetts
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 7:21:34 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> It's electric!
>
> On Sunday, September 29, 2019 at 11:47:40 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
> > Jake, I have 2.0 with
Judas!
Sorry, couldn't help myself, haha. Very nicely done. That's the classiest
electric motorcycle with pedals anyone will ever see. Enjoy!
Chris
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Yo Jake, I'm running RTP's. What are they, 2.3's? And there's still plenty
of room. Using VO 60mm fenders and they are about even with the edges of
the RTP's. I was running 650x42 Hetres and Gravel Kings but wanted to try a
fatter tire. First experiment was with 47mm Switchback Hills. They fit but
Jake, I have 2.0 with fenders. I think 2.3 without is about the limit at the
fork, maybe a smidge more in the rear. That's a pretty A/R!
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Congrats! That's my holy grail Riv also -- and exactly my size!
If you want to see the original catalogs/paraphernalia from those years,
and are in Oakland/Berkeley, stop by sometime. I have a bunch!
Greg/Oakland
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>
Oh, first ride report: Light, maneuverable but tracks straight and true, super
fun. It's a Rivendell!
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/66TU9Ue4aGPijKyu9
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Ryan, I was just thinking that thought yesterday. A few months ago I had sold
my MIT Atlantis frame and it was looking - for health reasons - like that
Rivbikes chapter was closing. Then stuff happened and I saw that mid-stepover
custom on Riv's site and plopped my deposit down..now this!
Joe,
I think this is the bees knees and an amazing score. Funny how bikes come in
sets like waves. Unless that is something you and I just have in common with
our ocean like brains searching for the perfect ride. Looking forward to see
the New Custom coming down the pipe for you. Someday
Thanks, Addison! I've always admired your A/R, it's gorgeous.
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Yep Mark -- perfectly stated and well understood. And yet, we fawn all over
the simple Grant appointed 26" wide clearance level top tube model when it
shows up. It feels like an ethos thing to me. I realize that the Atlantis
got the nod for it ... but clearly, the All Rounder (and even the
Indeed...I stopped by Riv a few years ago and test rode a Hunqapillar.
Loved it but realized I was pretty much riding my Allrounder which I've
written about extensively and posted here. Of all of the early riv models
it strikes me as the most quintessentially Rivendell. Nice find Joe!
More than half the Riv lineup consists of all-rounders in various
configurations, including the Atlantis in 26" for many years. I would say
these bikes represent the design evolution of the all-rounder as
interpreted by G. Petersen.
On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 7:37 AM 'jeffrey kane' via RBW Owners
I've never understood why the All-Rounder doesn't have a permanent place in
the line up.
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:32:36 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Here's the first shots of my new-to-me A/R sans front fender and rack, and
> before I upright it with Boscos. It's a bummer I
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 9:30:16 AM UTC-7, John H. wrote:
>
> Beautiful build. I've been thinking about running Campy ergo's of that
> generation on my Sam. What's the jtek/cassette setup you have? How's it
> shifting?
>
I don't know about Joe's build, but Campagnolo Ergopowers can
John: It's Campy 10 to Shimano 9. It shifted fine in the stand, but I didn't
actually ride it. The shifters are off the bike now and someone's already
offered to buy them, I can sell you the Jtek thingy if you want.
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Beautiful build. I've been thinking about running Campy ergo's of that
generation on my Sam. What's the jtek/cassette setup you have? How's it
shifting?
John in Cambridge
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:32:36 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Here's the first shots of my new-to-me A/R sans
Beautiful build. I was thinking of running a similar shimergo setup on my Sam.
What jtek + cassette combo are you running?
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The colors are awesome Joe. The matching colored seat post is classy.
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 3:57:58 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Thanks, Hugh! It's a Holy Grail Riv for sure, especially to find one I can
> fit. It's quite astonishingly light, I wasn't expecting that. It's going
Ooh, I've never seen that chart before. Yes, 52cm C-to-T, and a more accurate
TT measurement does show 54.5. Nice sleuthing!
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On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 11:32:36 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Here's the first shots of my new-to-me A/R sans front fender and rack, and
> before I upright it with Boscos. It's a bummer I can't use those sweet
> carbon Campy brifters, but alas my arthritic wrists won't put up with
Geez, I just noticed I have the QR lever on the wrong side on the front wheel.
How many decades have I been working on bikes??
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It's beautiful, Joe. I cannot wait to see what your finished bike will
look like and how you like this new electrified version. I'm sure it will
be MAH-velous!
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:32:36 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Here's the first shots of my new-to-me A/R sans front
Paul: It's a very dark blue. I need to finish the build and get some pics in
sunlight to show it.
Rich S: Yep, still have a custom coming. This one is going to get a Copenhagen
Wheel, the custom will be my non-juiced Riv.
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Joe, this is a rare bird, especially since it has a 52 seat tube. Nice find
- congratulations!
You still have a custom in the works?
Best,
Rich in ATL
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 9:54:40 AM UTC-4, Paul Richardson wrote:
>
> very handsome indeed. love that blue. thanks for sharing.
>
or if it's black i love the black. i'm looking again and i can't really
tell! great color!!!
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very handsome indeed. love that blue. thanks for sharing.
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Thanks, Hugh! It's a Holy Grail Riv for sure, especially to find one I can fit.
It's quite astonishingly light, I wasn't expecting that. It's going to be fun!
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That's a beauty Joe.
On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 11:32:36 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Here's the first shots of my new-to-me A/R sans front fender and rack, and
> before I upright it with Boscos. It's a bummer I can't use those sweet
> carbon Campy brifters, but alas my arthritic
It’s a Pletscher indeed. Drilled a center hole and it matched up nicely to the
brake bridge, which had a squared center detail. Nitto draw bolts and struts
replaced the OEM riveted struts and allowed the rack to sit dead level. I could
file a bit off the underside where the now absent spring
Marty
I always found it windy in 1 direction on route 1 and was glad to have a
lower gear going into the wind. Nice picture of the new bridge.
Is the rack the Plestcher model S you modified for Nitto drawbolt and
mounting the front to rack mounts??? Sure looks good on the bcak, height
Thanks Justin, but I am 55 years old and live in the hills of Pittsburgh.
I don't think a single speed will work for me. Thanks for the offer,
though.
On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 8:57:45 PM UTC-4, justin...@gmail.com wrote:
Still got a SimpleOne here...
On Wednesday, September 3,
You might well be surprised, LJ! I live int he Colorado mountains and
absolutely love my QB. One gear from up, one for down (and the occasional
semi-flat bit). I was surprised how rapidly I adapted to handling climbs.
As my only bike? No. But what a blast they are! The simplicity is wondrous.
LJ,
You might also check Andrew's new yard sale posting:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/aPxa-ASFMgQ/OWb-UruVChgJ
He's selling a 61cm longlow-ish frame for $1400, but the saddle height he
lists is lower than mine, and I also have an 89 PBH. If I were in the
market now it
The headtube looks about the same as my 59 cm Bridgestone XO-1. The
All-rounder is more or less a refined XO-1. I might very well be wrong, but
I think they have the same geometry, give or take a few millimeters. I have
a pbh of 91 cm, 188 cm tall, and the XO-1 is a tad too small for my taste
Ken, I definitely will not drop $3k on this frame. Like I wrote above
that amount buys me a new bike. My take-away from some of the comments
above was that I could manage a 59cm given my 89 PBH. Thanks for the
repost of the custom build. It is tempting but also a half cm smaller.
Larry,
I also have an 89cm PBH @ 6' tall. I ride a 61 Atlantis, 59 San Marcos, 60
LHT, and 60 Santana Noventa. They all fit well, but the Atlantis is my
favorite. I bought it last Summer off of this list, like new and
completely built (w/o wheels or saddle) as I would have for myself for
Still got a SimpleOne here...
On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:32:18 AM UTC-7, L. J. Charlton wrote:
Ken, I definitely will not drop $3k on this frame. Like I wrote above
that amount buys me a new bike. My take-away from some of the comments
above was that I could manage a 59cm given my
I've talked to them about a few bikes. I thought they were a bit high, but
not egregiously so. $1200 would be a screaming deal, IMHO. Given that it's
a rare bike and less expensive than a new Riv, paying your birth year $19xx
would not be a bad deal.
jim m
wc ca
On Monday, September 1, 2014
Yes, a typo. I have an 89 PBH. I'll see if I can edit the original post
to avoid confusing others. Thank you.
On Monday, September 1, 2014 12:40:41 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
What is your actual PBH. Your PBH is not 59. That has to be a typo.
What is it really?
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I know I said this dealer was known for asking above-market prices (and as
was said here, that's his prerogative) but this is ridiculous. I will copy
his response verbatim:
Thanks for the inquiry and interest. Great choice.
Because we are willing and able to furnish any bike with a choice
I'm the original owner of a Waterford All-Rounder, so a couple of comments:
- According to my paperwork from the time, there were 3 sizes in the
range of interest, 55.5, 58 and 61. The bike for sale looks more like a 61
than a 58, primarily based on the headtube.
- My bike is a
Ha!
Well, as we used to say in retail, he's pretty proud of that... ;^)
You are buying a frame and fork. Yeah, there are some wheels and other
bits attached, but those are likely to be swapped out.
Honestly, for that specific offering, I'd have trouble paying more than
$8-900. For what he's
Mr. Fiend is in charge of the voices, but may I politely add in my best
Edna Krabappel voice: Ha!
And Chief Wiggum: Move along, nothing to see here.
It's been an Every Simpsons Ever sort of a week.
Cheers,
David
it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal
On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at
As others have said, the price seems high and given your PBH measurement it
sounds like it might be too small. If you are prepared to spend that kind
of coin, I would recommend that you work with the good folks at Rivendell
to help set you up with the best combination of bike for the budget
Hey there Larry -
Re: your second point - I'm guessing you mean you have a 89 cm PBH? That
would put you in the 59 cm frame range.That's a pretty safe guess for
the frame size on that model.
From those photos, it honestly looks a little bigger than a 59 - the
perspective of the
Once I called them about an Atlantis. He said I could have it for a
birthday price - which is you pay what the year of your birth is. He said
I could also bring as old a person as I wanted with me and he'd give it to
me for that price.
So if he is charging more than the year of your
Once I emailed them about an Atlantis they had. I think they still have
it. I did not buy it.
The shop owner said I could have it for a birthday price, same price as
your birth year. So if you were born in 1954, then you will pay $1954.
He said I could bring the oldest person with me
Hey y'all,
Maybe you can clue me in. But how does a bike maintain such a high value
when it is used and 19 years old?
I'm not saying its not worth it, because I don't really know the value of
these things.
I know its a Waterford Rivendell, so its top quality. But it is used and 19
years old.
Frame was probably $1300 new. Actually, cyclotourist's estimate might not
be totally out-of-line. That was a top-quality frame, and I don't think
there are thousands of A/R's around. They were a small-batch production
frame
Now when you start getting into the customs built by JS or CG with the
Seems to me discussion on this bike has come up a couple of times on the
list. While the bike looks big, am pretty sure it's the 26 wheels
contributing. My Surly LHT has a 58cm frame and 26 wheels and looks
similar.
Also will agree with the general price suggestion by Cyclotourist.
Eric Platt
I like the nicely written history of the AR. As the proud owner of a late
90s era Allrounder I'd like to throw this out there for some evidence of
just how aptly it is named. I've had loads of fun on this bike and also
been meticulous about keeping it in good shape so 15 years on it looks
Or perhaps this jack of all trades post is the best place to go with
photos of nearly every incarnation of the AR.
http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2013/01/rivendell-allrounder-jack-of-all.html
Regards,
Addison Wilhite, M.A.
Academy of Arts, Careers and
I may have a good memory for weird little things which leads to 1,000 words,
but Addison's pictures really tell the All Rounder story. Awesome:
http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2013/01/rivendell-allrounder-jack-of-all.html?q=allrounder
And as to the OP's question about which current models
I don't think it's been mentioned, but towards the end of the lifespan
of the AR, it morphed a bit from the original/XO style. I recall
ordering my AR back in late summer of 2000, and at that time,
discussing my deliberations with Grant about going with the AR or
waiting a short while for an
I'm enjoying this thread as it allows me to learn about yet another
Rivendell that was long gone by the time I discovered RBW.
I am just enthralled with 55mm Big Apples on 26 rims and now I'm setting
my long-term sights on a good bike to utilize that combo. Right now I've
got them on my
Another little detail is that the name All Rounder only had definition in a
capital-letter sense in the time before the bikes marked Rivendell were
considered custom.
The very first Riv offerings in the 90's (Road, All-Rounder, the rare Mountain,
and later the Longlow) were all their fanciest
Rivs have always undergone fairly frequent change. Part of that is a
result of the production scheme (all fab is outsourced, which leads to
changes in price and availability) and part is due to new ideas
occurring to the designer or being brought to his attention. As he has
often said, the RBW
And that's the ticket Bruce!
I agree with the Riv philosophy that choice doesn't always equal good; that
if some disaster happened and you could only have one bike for the rest of
your life, you'd be perfectly happy with a Riv, no matter if it's a AR,
custom, Atlantis...
I mean that's the point,
That is certainly a lot prettier than any XO I've seen! Nice color.
My late '94 (ordered; delivered early '95) road custom was built around the
AR design, but with geometry tweaked and tubing and lugs all road spec'd --
I was segueing from a roadified XO-1.
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 8:27 AM,
From an All Rounder owner...the closest current model would be the
Atlantis. Others may correct me, but I believe it is the direct descendant
of the AR.
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Yes - that is the generally accepted pedigree:
B'stone XO
begat
Rivendell A/R
begat
Rivenedell Atlantis
begat
Rivendell Sam Hillborne (canti)
- J
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 10:55:23 AM UTC-8, jinxed wrote:
From an All Rounder owner...the closest current model would be the
Atlantis.
But isn't the Atlantis designed much more for loads and off road terrain?
The XOs -- certainly the XO-1 -- were certainly more road biased than dirt
biased, John Stamstead notwithstanding.
It seems to me that the Sam Hill is much more genetically similar to the
XOs than the Atlantis, as far as I
That's too Biblical. Needs to be more Elfish.: - )
On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:
Yes - that is the generally accepted pedigree:
B'stone XO
begat
Rivendell A/R
begat
Rivenedell Atlantis
begat
Rivendell Sam Hillborne (canti)
- J
On Saturday, January
Just tracing the lineage, which is of course influenced by the other
branches. GP has stated a number of times that the A/R stemmed from the
XO. (And around the Bay Area, spotting XO's on the trails was not an
outlier, but at that time, seeing an MB with drop bars wasn't odd either...)
The
twins from a different time? my Hillborne and an XO
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671211@N02/4513103792/
~mike
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That was a fun ride in March of 2010. There were two orange XO-1's with dummy
levers on mustache bars, yet modified from the stock setup:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671211@N02/4512459117/in/photostream/
On Jan 18, 2014, at 2:44 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
twins from a different time? my
Wow 2 ! X0-1's in one spot. I've only ever seen 1 other X0-1 in
Winnipeg...a fellow who's a friend of mine...My 20 year-old X0-1 still gets
lots of compliments. I'd never get rid of it,
I bought the A/R to be the ne plus ultra X0-1 because I liked the design of
the original X0-1 so much. Once
Not really surprising but my XO-1 felt totally different than my Atlantis.
They really are their own beasts though of course XO-1 is the granddaddy.
Ryan
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 4:20:28 PM UTC-8, Ryan wrote:
Wow 2 ! X0-1's in one spot. I've only ever seen 1 other X0-1 in
Winnipeg...a
hi Jinxed - beautiful set up. I have an old road bike frame project in the
mill. Can you measure drop on your bars for me? The 345mm overall drop
listed by on-one for these bars makes no sense. Thanks
On Friday, March 15, 2013 7:15:01 PM UTC-5, jinxed wrote:
OK. So after some excellent
also, is anyone using a Soma Road 1 bar? tried a search with no luck
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:20:11 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
hi Jinxed - beautiful set up. I have an old road bike frame project in
the mill. Can you measure drop on your bars for me? The 345mm overall
drop listed by
On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:53 PM, Mike Schiller
mikeybi...@rocketmail.comwrote:
and I certainly agree with you on hardtail 29ers... after going through a
few full suspension bikes, a well designed 29er is the best MTB no question!
Eh, I don't find them to be all that, personally. They do
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