It was not as big a feature as we had hoped; merely a sidebar to a bike
review where Jan briefly tried MKS Urban pedals with half clips and didn't
like them. His earlier blog post had let us hope that they were going to do
a study.
Study or not, I have to say that I agree with Jan, to the point
Oops, did miss it. It was a short sidebar to a review, "MKS Rinko Pedals".
Best summary is last paragraph:
Retentionless pedals work great on flat roads. Uphills, especially short
> rises, are easier when your feet are firmly attached to the pedals.
As some of the folks on this thread have
Just scanned the tables of contents for the Summer and Autumn issues, and
didn't see it. Maybe I missed it.
rod
On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 2:18:13 PM UTC-4, George Schick wrote:
>
> Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a
> synopsis of what they found out
"My summation is this : there is nothing to gain or lose regardless of any
choice"
Lack of any consequence to any decision might provide a disincentive to give
any thought to the decision itself. Is this really what you meant to say?
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Jan's point rang very true for me too.
All data aside, my adult cycling experience grew out of self-conducted
recovery from an injury that made my connection to the bike less Mark
Cavendish or Keirin racers, more about how to manage my altered
proprioception and all-around poise that came
>
> As I ride without retention, I think of myself JUST like this guy!
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ud5T5I4XcA
Riding free,
Edwin
>
>
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As always of course , everyone decides for themselves ! Just because
"j. doe" says it is so does not make it so .
I ride up all sorts of short steep hills over hill and dale in Crocs for
goodness sakes . . .. which are essentially foam . Crocs slides even,
not the clog style with the
Now that Summer is long past, does anyone who subscribes to BQ have a
synopsis of what they found out about pedal retention usefulness that
they'd like to share?
On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Doubtless of interest to RBW listers. Quoted from the Compass
This just in: from the VO blog. Obviously rigorous, high and pure science.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgMfeature=youtu.be
Seriously, if not exactly rigorous or pure, still interesting. (The rigor
is at the level of the BQ observations: anecdotal, but still informative.)
For my own
Steve wrote (and Patrick more added some interesting comments):
Let's face it: those who like flat pedals - pedals without retention devices
- aren't after performance gains that can be measured objectively. They're
after comfort and convenience. Some riders can make them work quite
Improper content reported.
On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 5:28:04 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
actually, this thread went to the toilet long ago, and Steve, you and
Matthew J filled it
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:47:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
I'm surprised this discussion has had
actually, this thread went to the toilet long ago, and Steve, you and
Matthew J filled it
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:47:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
I'm surprised this discussion has had so much staying power. It's a
relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned.
--
You
Out for two hours this morning, tried to observe what I did. Found that I do
lift my foot so that there is no pressure on the pedal, but foot still in
kontakt with the pedal. On the flats and on the hills. Must be an automatic
brain thing.
And first time this year in only a t-shirt and shorts!
On 06/13/2015 02:56 AM, olofst...@gmail.com wrote:
I started to ride intensively at age 5 and have never stopped (now 72). Didn´t
meet retention until over 30. I´m a natural spinner and rides both roads and
trails. On flat rubber pedals, never got enamoured by retention. This comes
very
It's a relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned. Now that has
never limited a thread, has it?
Cheerfully,
Edwin
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 4:47:07 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 06/12/2015 05:33 PM, Edwin W wrote:
I think that Jan does a great job of disclosing and being
On 06/12/2015 05:33 PM, Edwin W wrote:
I think that Jan does a great job of disclosing and being honest in
reviews AND having a business that runs on a certain kind of biking
introduces a bias.. which is why he should disclose! It is impossible
to measure this bias, we all have to work out in
I think that Jan does a great job of disclosing and being honest in reviews
AND having a business that runs on a certain kind of biking introduces a
bias.. which is why he should disclose! It is impossible to measure this
bias, we all have to work out in our mind how much he is biased.
In my
On 06/12/2015 05:49 PM, Edwin W wrote:
It's a relatively trivial issue, as far as I'm concerned. Now that
has never limited a thread, has it?
Well, that's certainly true.
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Steve: Although I am someone who hasn't used non-retention pedals since
1970 (that's a wee bit hyperbolic but largely true) I have to weigh in for
the other side and say that I, personally, have heard too much from riders
with enough experience and certainly enough power output about the joys of
Hahaha... made me
On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 8:02:47 AM UTC-7, Rod Holland wrote:
Anne,
Sounds like the guy forgot to unclip his mouth from his Y chromosome...
That causes any number of accidents...
rod
On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:09:13 AM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:
Is
It's really a question of torque, not power. Like an old 20 hp tractor that
can climb a wall (if it is using clipless pedals).
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA benzouy...@gmail.com
wrote:
I'm a little late to this discussion, but can you please reconcile your
claim about
Clayton, I don't think your head should have been bitten off. It was a
reasonable interrogatory.
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On 06/11/2015 10:14 PM, 'clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I
thought he did. H.
You are wrong. He owns the Rene Herse name, but licenses it to Mike
Kone of Boulder Bicycles for the Herse bicycle line.
Clayton
It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister
company that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists
is because we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our research into practice
and make the parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We cannot tell
Jan, I apologize. I did not mean to offend anyone, and was totally mistaken
about your connection to Rene Herse. Your connection to them in my mind,
somehow became your brand, that you sold. However I stand by my brake comments.
I had intense brake judder on my Specialized Crux, and it was
I thought the whole debate was that for unracers flat pedals are fine.
From what I have read of his exploits, it doesn't surprise me that Jan
gains some efficiency from being attached to the pedal. I don't think I
do. I certainly fall into the unracer camp and will keep on doing what I
have
It's totally normal to be skeptical when a magazine also has a sister
company that sells bicycle components... However, the reason Compass exists
is because we at Bicycle Quarterly wanted to put our research into
practice and make the parts that we want to ride on our own bikes. We
cannot
Just imagine how I made the real Patrick feel when I joined! Grin.
With abandon,
Patrick (who sometimes likes to look like the real Patrick by adding a long
description to my signature just to mess with him. Grin.)
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 10:59:26 AM UTC-6, Clayton.sf wrote:
Now we have
Now we have two claytons!
Will have to change my handle ;-)
Clayton Scott
SF, CA
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Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought
he did. H.
Well, you are going to have to H a little bit longer and harder.
While Jan owns the name and sells components with it, Rene Herse branded
randonneur frames are made and sold by Mike Kone and Mark
But its cool to bite Jan's head off for something he does not do.
On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 8:49:06 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
Clayton, I don't think your head should have been bitten off. It was a
reasonable interrogatory.
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Clayton,
No apologies necessary. You are right that a lot of brake judder can be
cured with toe-in adjustment. However, on these carbon forks, even the most
extreme toe-in doesn't solve the problem - we tried everything (including
toe-out, different pads, etc.). On our first long ride on that
You said it Patrick, the ability to move ones feet while riding is a huge
benefit. Even slight movements make a big difference.
I don't get BQ's opening the lid analogy, nor do I understand this statement
When my feet are firmly attached to the pedals, I may not actually pull
up, but I am
Boat shoes would probably be fine. I rode in Ralph Lauren fake All-Stars
high-top sneakers today, with thin wool socks. VP-001s with pins.
What BMX pedals are you getting? I have a pair of silver VP-001s coming for
the Ross C-Line makeover, but I'd like to upgrade another bike as well from
Patrick, 5-10 sneakers have been my favorites for years. I save a bunch
of dough buying the close out models from the 5-10 web site at
http://shopfiveten.com/C-44/Bike
I especially like the ones with the sticky rubber soles because they grip
even better when the pedals soles get wet.
John
Richard: thanks. You pushed me over the edge. I plan to try flatties on the
Fargo, but next month or so, since I've just dropped huge on my car,
roof, hvac, cleaning, etc.
Vaughn at Stevie's recommended some polycarbonate pedals list $22 that he
says are fine and used by the BMX periti. So
Patrick, I think you'll love flatties. Plastic ones will do, just make sure
they have pins on the flats. Your feet will never slip, even when wet.
You really don't need special shoes for platforms. For hot summer days I ride
in sandals, and sneakers in the cooler months. Try to find ones with a
there is no question with platform pedals you give up pull with a high-rev
spin up hills. But for me, the advantages of foot placement flexibility
along with instant ingress and egress more than make up for it.
If you're grunting on a 70-inch gear, you should stand up anyway and lose
the
I pull up especially when I'm grunting up a hill at very low cadence, which of
course means standing and hauling on the bar. I'll see how much torque I lose
with clipless-less-ness.
Need closed shoes because of dirt and pebbles. Will look at 5-10 and also
atGoodwill.
Sent from my iPhone
I'm a little late to this discussion, but can you please reconcile your
claim about the lack of ability to put out power with BMX sprinting? These
guys generate in excess of 1000 watts and don't have clipless pedals. They
seem to be able to put down plenty of watts with very modest body weight.
Does he not own Rene Herse? And sell his own randoneur frames? I thought he
did. H.
Clayton
On Thursday, June 11, 2015 6:55 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com
wrote:
On 06/11/2015 11:38 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote (speaking of Jan
Heine):
He seemed infer
On 06/11/2015 11:38 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote (speaking
of Jan Heine):
He seemed infer that judder in plastic bikes is incurable, but I think
*he was just putting on a sales spin for his bikes.*
What bikes would those be? Jan doesn't sell bikes at all.
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Patrick, one of my favorite shoes I used back in my toe clip days, are skate
shoes. They have grippy soles, padded toes and tongues and you can find them
cheap at Payless or Target. However, currently my faves are 510s paired with
big mountain bike pinned flats. They stick so well, that with a
After riding clipless and toe clips since 1987, I wanted my spin to be
more efficient, so I spent 3-1/2 years perfecting my spin, by pedaling a
stationary bike, one legged on slippery flat pedals. The only time I have
found clipless to be an advantage is when you need the extra horse
I was disappointed in the piece. It just sounded like Jan's personal
preference and that he needed more practice pedaling flat pedals to have an
opinion worth sharing.
I love 5-10 Sneakers the Riv Grip King pedals better than riding on VP
Thin Gripsters or Vice pedals, but is that really
I wonder if no-retention works best if you pedal small gears at a highish
cadence, rather than if you mash. Can anyone comment on this?
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I have no idea, Patrick. I ride the steep in SS but not with the weight
you're talking about. And don't know how much I'd notice the ability to
lift up on the rear pedal.
With abandon,
Patrick
On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 1:56:20 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
I shall have to try it. But what
Retention free works high or low cadence for me. When I read Jan's jar
lid example, I thought Uh, pedal/handlebar does the same thing so I
personally suspect less difference in efficiency than retention vs. body
weight only. I'm not limited to my body weight on the downstroke when
pulling up
It makes zero difference to me :) I ride on the flats, sometime spinning
sometimes mashing. Up the ubiquitous 20 something percent climbs , both
seated and standing , makes no difference to me . I wonder how I put up
with riding rock hard boards called cycling shoes for so long . My feet
Of course after the test it was agreed that for racing, clipless is more
practical and safe , with the violent efforts and all. So again, whatever
suits your style :)
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I shall have to try it. But what about *really* steep hills? I find that I
not only pull down on the bar, but pull up on the pedal. Would losing the
last be a handicap?
I mean such occasions as grunting a 40 lb load up a very steep 1/4 to 1/2
mile hill up the side of a mesa in a 70 gear. Again,
Deacon: thanks.
To turn the question around (for everyone): what are the *advantages* of
riding no retention? I discount the reason given as no need for special
shoes since I certainly wouldn't be cycling fixed or off road no-retention
in Bass Weejuns on Tony Lamas or, for that matter, in Sperry
And I am not secretly and snidely asserting that retention is better*. If
no retention is proved to be more efficient, I'll drop my Keos and SPDs in
a NY minute.
But I *am* skeptical, since cycling and its related technology is after all
very mature, and foot retention dates back well over 100
Just Ride . . . . . and keep smiling Patrick Moore :-)
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Riding flats well after years of clip less is not something that happens over
night. Different technique is needed and that comes with regular use. Quickly
jumping on flats for a ride and drawing conclusions is likely too hasty an
approach.
Clayton Scott
SF, CA
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On 06/08/2015 12:02 PM, Garth wrote:
What is everyone expecting ? Stating the obvious , whatever one
chooses to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find
justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice,
or they make up their own evidence . *No
Just Ride . . . and Smile :)
On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 12:23:37 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-refuting_idea
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript:
wrote:
What is everyone expecting ? Stating the obvious , whatever
There seems to be a misunderstanding. We never advertised it as a study.
I wrote in a blog comment that we tested some pedals with and without
retention. I am sorry this was misunderstood as purporting to have done a
scientific study, and then reported here as such. The article and test
never
Why haven't I received my copy??? I want it!!
I had hoped this article reported a scientific study, but even if it don't,
it will be interesting to read others' experiences on the matter. Me,
riding fixed or, when using gears, not using them a great deal, I find that
I do pull up hard on hills
From this distance, I'm still in awe of Anne's bike. But I had one of the
best chats with a couple of roadies at yesterday's halfway stop that I can
ever remember. These guys had followed me on my upright for 8 miles before
they gained momentum to pass. As we came out of the creek bottom
I too was disappointed with the study. By study I thought Jan meant a
scientific study where a hypotheses was rigorously tested with a repeatable
methodology that would refine the hypothesis. Instead it was subjective
with non-repeatable observations of how Jan reacted to a system that was
What is everyone expecting ? Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses
to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find
justification from wherever they can get it to support their choice, or
they make up their own evidence . *No scientific study is or can be
Absolutely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-refuting_idea
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
What is everyone expecting ? Stating the obvious , whatever one chooses
to use for pedals , let alone anything , they'll seek and find
justification from wherever they can get
I like the two hands opening a jar lid analogy. Is power output really
limited by the rider's body weight when using platform pedals, though? It
seems that by pulling hard on the handlebars in rhythm with the pedal
stroke, some of that force of can be added to the downward leg thrust. The
arms
Received my summer issue of BQ. I am disappointed with the published
test. Not that the test does not support my position but that it was a
seat-of-the-pants test. I was expecting/hoping for power outputs, VO2
charts, lactate threshold kinds of data. This is what I would expect from
the BQ
I am sorry that there was a misperception that we did a detailed study of
pedal retention. We tested a few pedals, both with and without retention,
and the results were interesting. Whether a more rigorous study is needed
when the results are so clear is another matter. To cite an even more
To illustrate what I find odd in Mike's post (below) I'll suggest the
following modification of it. To be clear, this is suggested merely to
illustrate a point and possibly foster useful discussion.
On the lugged steel wannabe retro grouches... I see at least a dozen a
day. I live in an aging
Perhaps Hanlon's Razor applies to this sticky situation:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
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What's being debated is gender-based knowledge.
Off topic for the list, no doubt, but mansplaining is definitely a
well-documented phenomena. And while there certainly may be anecdotal
counter narratives* of womansplaining, I find it incredibly hard to believe
such activity comes anywhere
On 05/18/2015 11:13 AM, Anne Paulson wrote:
On the other hand, some bikes are clearly chosen. If I see someone
touring on a generic Surly Long Haul Trucker, well, that's a pretty
common bike to tour on. But if I see someone touring on a singlespeed
'cross bike, I'm going to figure they chose to
That's true. But when I walked the babies I didn't think the advice that I
received was ill-intentioned, nor did I get into a gender wrangle with it
(or post to a use-group).
I listened and hoped to learn something. Mostly I didn't (learn anything).
But the point is: gender knowledge isn't
The main reason I use straps with flat pedals is to retain control of the
pedal when I come to a stop. When it comes time to go, I raise my foot and
the pedal rises with it. It's quick, reliable and I avoid nicks and bruises
to my shins. My pedals are MKS Tourists, which allow use of Power
I don't want to get into an argument about whether a guy of my age
would have gotten the same comments about clipless pedals. Maybe,
maybe not. And I certainly believe that the comments were
well-intentioned.
But Will, I think you're missing the point. It's not about the cost of
the item; it's
It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were
more efficient.
Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.
On point - I tour with half clips and don't wear cycle specific clothing
when touring. Two years back on a couple day tour from LaCrosse, Wi to
Yanking the thread back to retentionless, Vaughn, the you 20-something
mechanic as Stevie's says he rides nothing but platforms (what *is* the
proper term for pedals with grippy flats but no clip mech? Non-no-clips?)
and feels fully confident bombing at 35 mph down very rough tracks. He also
says
I think the incident was a huge opportunity for a magnificent put-down,
something along the lines of, Joe Blow of Surly and I conferred about this
build, and we both agreed with Tom Ritchey and Keith Bontrager that flat
pedals work best for this setup. I must say it works for me; my last 3
customs
I dunno about this.
I remember walking the babies in a backpack and stroller. It never failed
that women (never men) would give unsolicited advice on things. Socks
needed to be pulled up, hats needed adjusting, sun screen, and so forth.
I never made it a gender issue. And I never thought
On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
...of course we all must realize that the most well researched,
carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice
for a person/use. The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely
feels that they made an informed decision
...of course we all must realize that the most well researched, carefully
chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice for a
person/use. The person on their $5000+ carbon bike most likely feels that
they made an informed decision even though they would be more comfortable
on
Anne,
I think we agree. I watch folks on the bikepaths here riding $5K bikes.
Yes... they went to the LBS and many of them got hosed.
I had a young person give me the business last month. She was on an Orbea
with all the go-fast bits. I was on my Atlantis (with fenders). She wanted
to know
Mansplaining is not well documented
Google pulls up thousands of articles on the subject, many from respected
outlets.
I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both
are transport devices.
Something is lost in translation here.
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No and no.
Mansplaining is not well documented... and it is exactly why I used the
stroller example. Women are quite capable of gender indifference in giving
advice.
I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both are
transport devices.
My point is: despite having
sigh
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:48:18 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:
Mansplaining is not well documented
Google pulls up thousands of articles on the subject, many from respected
outlets.
I do not think bikes and strollers lack philosophical equivalence. Both
are transport devices.
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:05:09 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:
It might simply be that the young man believed that clip-in pedals were
more efficient.
Whatever the rider thought, it was none of his business.
Ultimately . . . . What someone else think of me is none of* my* business
#interruptershaming
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 2:49:05 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:
Huh? I didn't say I ride an upright bike. On all 3 of my low trail
custom's I have drop bars a inch or so below the saddle. I was referring to
Mr P.
On the carbon wannabe racers... I see at least a
Huh? I didn't say I ride an upright bike. On all 3 of my low trail
custom's I have drop bars a inch or so below the saddle. I was referring to
Mr P.
On the carbon wannabe racers... I see at least a dozen a day. I live along
the coast in SoCal and they ride their bikes up and down all day
Garth: what *I* think of you is very much your business!
Over and out.
For now.
Patrick playing the age'd fool in ABQ, NM.
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 10:05:09 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:
It might simply be that the young
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
...of course we all must realize that the most well researched,
carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be the best choice
for a person/use. The person on
On 05/18/2015 04:42 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
...of course we all must realize that the most well researched,
carefully chosen, and costly bike/stroller may not be
Anne, I think my little cousin would have the best response in this
situation:
Talk to the hand!
And I think Mr. Twain has the best advice for situations like this:
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and
then beat you with experience.”
John
On Saturday,
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 1:51:41 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 05/18/2015 04:42 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 11:03:00 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 05/18/2015 01:24 PM, Mike Schiller wrote:
...of course we all must realize that the most well
The belt drive is fantastic. The Thudbuster seat post is no longer on
the bike. It turns out that with the small size of the bike and the
big wheels, there is not enough room to use a bikepacking seatbag, so
I installed a Nitto R10 rack. The R10 attaches to the seat post (look
at the bike and tell
Anne (and Deacon Patrick), I think these kinds of comments and suggestions--
even though men get them too -- can be very gendered. I think a good way to
think of it is: do women repeatedly and persistently receive and experience
comments on a whole range of mechanical/engineering activities
Anne, sounds like you have found a solution to carrying gear in the rear,
but a few bag makers can produce small bikepacking seatbags. I had one
made by Greg at Boulder Bags that will fit a french fit bike. It fits my
summer sleeping bag and a bivy/tarp.
Revelate makes smaller bikepacking seatbags-- but not small enough to
fit my bike. And in any case, I don't want a tiny little bag, because
I want to carry stuff in it. I'm not really a fan of bikepacking
seatbags: they don't hold very much, they're hard to pack and unpack,
and whatever you want
As I said in another forum apropos of something else--when people start
explaining to you why you're doing something wrong and that something has
no consequences for them one way or the other, you're into the land of
religion. Avoid.
On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 10:09:13 AM UTC-4, Anne
What a bike! How is the belt drive? Can't believe anyone would look at that and
only be able to come up with you should ride clipless...
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Is this mansplaining, or does this happen to you, too:
I was out riding my Surly Krampus on some fire roads that are, to be
honest, too steep for me. So I was doing a lot of walking. But that's
OK, I don't mind walking.
At the top, I came upon three guys who had ridden up the other side,
the
It was NOT because you didn't share genders with the those other riders; it
was because you didn't have the same gear and the same bike
worldview--and they would have gone off on any one riding your rig, not
because the rider was different, but because the ride was.
On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:09
Speaking as a rider who uses clipless pedals and shoes, I certainly appreciate
this, and I'm sure that riders of flat pedals will extend this courtesy to me.
Same goes, I would hope, for Lycra vs loose shorts, jersey vs non-jersey, bar
height, etc., etc.
We all put a lot of thought into where
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