On 13 April 2010 08:37, wrote:
> 1. use a different tag which is not "industrial". You don't need a wiki
> vote, you can just decide that in Russia these places are
> "landuse=special" (perhaps use a suitable russian word). It is important
> that this tag does not render. Then no attention is dra
> 2010/4/13 andrzej zaborowski
>
>> For the record I'm much more likely to trust Komzpa who's a long time
>> contributor to the community than someone who thinks citizenship has
>> any meaning at all in an argument.
>>
>
> Komzpa is out of reach of Russian state authorities. Russian citizens are
>
is the operator= tag any use? e.g. aeroway=aerodrome;operator=RAF
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> Komzpa is out of reach of Russian state authorities. Russian citizens are
> not. That is the only thing I wanted to tell specifing that he is from
> Belorussia.
Official german map providers have a very nice tagging for military areas and
other not public areas "owned" by the gouvernment, the
On 12 April 2010 13:21, Johann H. Addicks wrote:
> > military, but it is used/guarded by them. It would surprise me if there
> are
> > no signs to tell you it is something to do by the military.
>
> There are nice echelon sites in germany which just have high fences and
> signs
> warning about hi
2010/4/12 Kirill Bestoujev :
>
>
> 2010/4/13 andrzej zaborowski
>>
>> For the record I'm much more likely to trust Komzpa who's a long time
>> contributor to the community than someone who thinks citizenship has
>> any meaning at all in an argument.
>
> Komzpa is out of reach of Russian state auth
2010/4/13 andrzej zaborowski
> For the record I'm much more likely to trust Komzpa who's a long time
> contributor to the community than someone who thinks citizenship has
> any meaning at all in an argument.
>
Komzpa is out of reach of Russian state authorities. Russian citizens are
not. That i
2010/4/12 Kirill Bestoujev :
>
> 2010/4/12 Komяpa
>>
>> Second, a bit about Wikimapia. Wikimapia: 1) is a project that is
>> hosted in Russia and by russian citizens
>
> One more lie:
It's an out of date information but that doesn't change the fact that
the Russian government has not managed or t
Hi,
Komяpa wrote:
> This message represents my point of view, that may or may not be
> supported by other members. Most of the quotes are approximate, since
> initially they were badly grammatically constructed and can't be
> directly translated to English. If I had totally misunderstod
> somethin
> military, but it is used/guarded by them. It would surprise me if there are
> no signs to tell you it is something to do by the military.
There are nice echelon sites in germany which just have high fences and signs
warning about high voltage.
But plate stating something about military or use
2010/4/12 Komяpa
> Second, a bit about Wikimapia. Wikimapia: 1) is a project that is
> hosted in Russia and by russian citizens
>
One more lie:
P address: 67.220.205.212
Host name: wikimapia.org
Alias:
wikimapia.org
67.220.205.212 is from United States(US) in region North America
May be it'
Hi,
As was mentioned above, I'm not Russian citizen, I'm from Belarus,
which has a lot stricter laws sometimes.
This message represents my point of view, that may or may not be
supported by other members. Most of the quotes are approximate, since
initially they were badly grammatically constructe
On 13 April 2010 01:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2010/4/12 Dmitry Granovsky :
>> Another issue which surprises me immensely is that in Russia a lot of
>> open (=not secret) data gathered together and structured may allegedly
>> result in secret data. Could anyone from, say, Germany or UK comme
2010/4/12 Dmitry Granovsky :
> Another issue which surprises me immensely is that in Russia a lot of
> open (=not secret) data gathered together and structured may allegedly
> result in secret data. Could anyone from, say, Germany or UK comment
> on this?
For Germany this is the same.
cheers,
Ma
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Dmitry Granovsky
> Another issue which surprises me immensely is that in Russia a lot of
> open (=not secret) data gathered together and structured may allegedly
> result in secret data. Could anyone from, say, Germany or UK comment
> on this?
In Sweden you have to
Hi all,
As far as I understand, there is a point that produces a lot of
headache, namely that the same piece of data may be secret and at the
same time clearly visible by anyone passing by. Say, the numbers of
military bases turn out to be secret (http://tinyurl.com/yaddwqg), but
at least some of
Hi,
On 12 April 2010 08:32, Eugene Iline wrote:
> Moreover, in general it is often not possible to distinguish each object
> with a wall or fence around it even with a building with a plate "control
> checkpoint" or "military unit #" on it as an object owned by military,
> so the only "absolu
The question with Eugene seems to be about mapping what is physically seen
from outside rather than mapping the outside.
Some people see some trees and paths so map it as a park. That is like
seeing big fences and army guards and mapping it as military.
If at the park you see a sign "Welcome to xx
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> But even as the most law-abiding citizen I have no legal obligation to
> log in to a database kept in another country and remove information
> about my country's military installations from there, or even try to
> convince the keepers of th
Hi,
Eugene Iline wrote:
> Moreover you can never know the truth about the object behind the wall,
> I repeat. The only truth on ground is that this is a wall and access is
> prohibited.
That's another situation then. If there's just a wall and armed guards
then it might not appropriate to tag
That is not the core problem, please do not extrapolate. That is not as wide
as you understand.
We take here only one or two laws concerning state secret. And that has very
little in common with, as you said, "Soviet law (with the same dose of
paranoia, of course)".
There is no word in these law ab
On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote:
> In this case for publishing I suggest to re-render it with stuff
> filtered out. Question is - how to automate it? In meantime, it would
> be nice to have some service where you can render/get planet.xml with
> stuff layered/filtered out
> Frederik, is it possible in Germany to give away state secret (if you know
> that some combination of information is not to be published for the reason
> that it is a secret by the law, only in combination) without being judged?
> You may say that to know a secret you must be allowed by the secre
Eugene Iline wrote:
> 2010/4/12 Frederik Ramm mailto:frede...@remote.org>>
>
> The one thing that is *not* ok is changing existing landuse=military
> tags *in the main database* to something else. This is the one
> important thing I took from Komяpa's message - people attempting to
>
Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Eugene Iline wrote:
>> And that is all that happens. It seems to me that this little local rule
>> of excluding landuse=military on the territory of Russian Federation
>> will give OSM in Russia clear chanses not to be negatively influenced by
>> state officials.
>
>
2010/4/12 Frederik Ramm
>
> The one thing that is *not* ok is changing existing landuse=military tags
> *in the main database* to something else. This is the one important thing I
> took from Komяpa's message - people attempting to remove information from
> OSM hoping to please their government. I
Hi,
Eugene Iline wrote:
> And that is all that happens. It seems to me that this little local rule
> of excluding landuse=military on the territory of Russian Federation
> will give OSM in Russia clear chanses not to be negatively influenced by
> state officials.
It is perfectly ok for you to
Good morning, All.
I am one of the representative of OSM/PocketGis team. At this moment we have
70+ active members of the both projects (OSM and PocketGis) simultaneously
http://tinyurl.com/y3cotlt . We operate mainly in Moscow region, but we have
active memebers throughout the whole western Russi
On 12 April 2010 09:18, Gregory wrote:
> Most of the time mapping military areas is not a security risk, but perhaps
It's also useful to know target practice areas for safety reasons...
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The military issue has come up with OSM before. My thoughts:
Most of the time mapping military areas is not a security risk, but perhaps
mapping the roads and buildings inside them (if you can't see them from
outside the area). Anyone can take these notes, and if they are for bad
intentions they wi
2010/4/12 Gleb Smirnoff :
> The argument about China is new, however. Thanks.
Here's a link with more information
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-03/07/content_821274.htm
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Hello,
Let me followup on this topic. I am Russian citizen and I didn't
want this problem to appear on this list. I hoped that we could solve
it ourselves.
I second all the information that Komяpa provided.
Also, all the arguments that were provided to Kirill by Frederik, John,
Liz and oth
>> There are to projects, one already launched and one bing prepared, similar
>> to OSM, but both sponsored by big companies -one by Yandex (our Russian
>> biggest search engine, could say local Google) the other - by on of the
>> leading Russain navigation software companies. The do know very well
On 12 April 2010 00:37, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> I appreciate the predicament and as I pointed out it may very well be
> that removing landuse=military from Russia is the least worst option
> for everyone involved.
Removing data just because a country doesn't like it isn't a good
reason,
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:17, Kirill Bestoujev wrote:
> 2010/4/11 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
>>
>> It's useful to check out some of the lengths Wikipedia (especially
>> local language editions) go to to bend over backwards for national
>> law.
>
> Wikipedia is not a good example - the geo-informati
2010/4/11 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
> I'd like to suggest that you take down the forum post pointing people
> to mass-vote on the OSM wiki. How we decide things as a project isn't
> a function of how many people you can convince to mass-register for
> the wiki.
>
This was a call not to mass regist
On 11 April 2010 12:37, Nic Roets wrote:
> Frederik,
>
> He did not give an exhaustive list of all the censorship laws, rules
> and regulations of his country. Rather he was just giving a little bit
> of background information.
>
> If there is something in the Russian DB that their government want
2010/4/11 Kirill Bestoujev :
> I'm a member of that team. I.'m one of those who voted for changing the
> rules of mapping military in Russia. The reason for that was NOT the
> problems to OUR project, but problems to the possibility to legally use OSM
> in Russia.
It's nice to have someone from th
Hi all,
> If there is something in the Russian DB that their government wants us
> to remove, then we should remove it. Otherwise it could escalate to
> the point where they block osm.org, or even have an edit war between
> us and hackers employed by the KGB^H^H^H Russian Intelligence. The
> entit
Frederik,
He did not give an exhaustive list of all the censorship laws, rules
and regulations of his country. Rather he was just giving a little bit
of background information.
If there is something in the Russian DB that their government wants us
to remove, then we should remove it. Otherwise it
We have a similar issue in France about illegal content in OSM. I'ts
about... individual addresses. Our data privacy laws consider an individual
address as an indirect private information (even anonymized). This law is an
exception in Europe and might change in the near future but until then, we
ha
Hi,
Kirill Bestoujev wrote:
> We (PocketGis team) are currently making some efforts to prove to our
> state authorities that OSM data can be used by anyone, in any way. This
> is only possible if that data contains nothing that violates Russian
> legislation.
You have just explained that using
On Sun, 11 Apr 2010, Kirill Bestoujev wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Just to explain the point of view of the PocketGis team:
>
thankyou Kirill
can we ask you about using different tiles with no landuse=military
if these were available would this deal with your problem?
(it is of no use for the state to pr
Hello!
Just to explain the point of view of the PocketGis team:
I'm a member of that team. I.'m one of those who voted for changing the
rules of mapping military in Russia. The reason for that was NOT the
problems to OUR project, but problems to the possibility to legally use OSM
in Russia.
For
On 11 April 2010 08:46, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> But there is no reason and no legitimation to remove the stuff from OSM,
> no matter what the outcome of a vote on the matter is. You are welcome
> to explain this to those who seem to have made it their goal to "win"
> the vote.
This shouldn't be al
Komяpa,
the OSM Wiki does not have a "binding" character. Winning or losing a
vote does not mean that someone has the right to mass-delete data from OSM.
With near certainty it is not illegal for OSM to keep data about
military installations in Russia on its servers.
It may or may not be il
Hi all,
Let me tell some news about "what the hell is going on" in russian OSM
community (wiki+forum).
First, there's some strange voting on wiki. http://tinyurl.com/y8etzgy
It's about mapping military objects. The strange tings are that it
didn't have proper RFC period, one of the things it prop
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