andrzej zaborowski balr...@... writes:
To answer Steve's question: yes, neither CC-By-SA
nor ODbL nor CC-By-SA and ODbL dual-license are compatible with the
current contributor terms.
Or, in other words, OSM itself is not compatible with them.
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point of principle, is open
to debate. But it's certainly the case.
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Shaun McDonald shaun at shaunmcdonald.me.uk writes:
For example according to Nominatim Surrey covers most of London
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=559111
Is there a reason why Nominatim doesn't use the administrative county
boundaries?
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in the osm data that it doesn't use?
Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote. I thought you meant that Nominatim when
searching for 'Surrey' will use the rough polygon for place=county rather than
the boundary of Surrey administrative county.
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Shaun McDonald shaun at shaunmcdonald.me.uk writes:
Yep, there is no polygon for the boundary of Surrey that I'm aware of,
There are certainly bits and pieces, for example way 32900389. But most likely
they don't form a single polygon. What is needed to make it work?
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think it inevitable that ODbL+CT will be imposed in their
current
proposed form by the OSMF.
What 80n wrote is correct, but it's not quite as bleak as it sounds.
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Perhaps there should be a meta-contributor-terms where you agree to accept
future
contributor terms proposed by the OSMF. Then there wouldn't be the need to
re-ask everybody each time the contributor terms change.
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, especially in countries with
no additional sources of data besides individual mappers. So we need to find a
way to prioritize our efforts on the 80% most useful part of the map. Some
search statistics would provide a way to do that.
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of
that.)
Let's leave Kosovo, etc. out of the discussion.
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prefer the ODbL but are unable to agree to the CTs since they don't own
all the data they have contributed.
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, and because of some helpful licence changes by the FSF,
there was no loss of data.
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Markus_g marku...@... writes:
What was the original vote deciding?
The vote, of OSMF members only, was on 'I approve the process' or 'I do not
approve the process'. (Those were the two choices in the vote.)
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Have there been any data imports in Northern Ireland? It's not included in the
Ordnance Survey OpenData release (there is a separate Ordnance Survey of
Northern
Ireland), nor in the NaPTAN public transport database.
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could not do likewise. Without extra permission,
we could not incorporate ODbL data into our map, even if it had been derived
from
OSM in the first place.
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difficulty seems to be 'grant extra
powers to the OSMF that ordinary contributors don't have'. Sigh...
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Out of interest has anyone asked the Open Data Commons people (or person) for
their opinion on the proposed contributor terms? I know the ODbL licence was
developed jointly with them but I imagine the CTs were not.
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.
Some people want to import data, some don't. Both groups need to be supported.
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be able to import or use any
data from these ODbL-covered data releases?
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contributors have marked their own house with a note tag!). A medical practice
is somewhere between the two. I guess if it is listed in the phone directory's
business section under a particular name, then that name can go in OSM.
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It's great to see the new Mapquest sites up and running. Is there anything that
we the OSM mappers can do to improve them? In other words are there any
particular wishes from the Mapquest people about how the data can be improved?
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) but of social norms about what details are public and what a map
might be expected to show.
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Are you saying that any argument based on data imports is irrelevant to the
choice of licence?
What, then, would be an admissible reason for not using licence, in your view?
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Tom Chance t...@... writes:
If you have the time, it would be good to have buttons to say:
* this allotment doesn't exist on the ground
* our name is correct
Also, survey required (about 60% of missing allotments can be traced from
Yahoo photos).
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in the current terms and conditions,
but I would welcome any corrections. However, where ambiguity exists, it might
be wise to take the more conservative interpretation.
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believe that we have the ability to grant that right to
the OSMF for the Ordnance Survey data.
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relicensings possible. The argument against is the same:
that it grants too much power to the OSMF, even if subject to a vote of
'active' contributors.
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through.
Agreed. And when mapping I tag barrier=gate if there is a gate.
However, if you were writing a routing program, it would be unwise to assume
that you can drive through a barrier=gate if no additional access is specified.
Often a gate is locked shut.
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for their correction. Did this happen?
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, BTW - I'm not bothered about attribution
and I disagree with the ODbL for other reasons.)
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tracking the origin
of data is great, but much better to do it at a per-changeset level rather than
with duplicate tags on every single object.)
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.
An alternative would be to maintain a cleaned-up data set, perhaps as a table
on the OSM wiki, where errors can be noted. Then we can report them to
the London datastore people as a big batch. The musical allotments page could
even fetch the wiki page and turn the HTML table back into CSV data for use.
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for the
thirteen private allotments in Ealing.
Tag it in OSM by all means, but don't assume that because an allotment is
located in a particular borough it must be operated by that borough council.
As you say, there are private allotments, and there are also ones managed
by charities.
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Robert Scott li...@... writes:
Musical allotments now ignores allotment(s).
Thanks. There are some odd cases where the local authority's name ends in
'(streetmap)'. Could that also be ignored?
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to
be some kind of 'a:not:ment' for indicating that no allotment exists at this
point at all.
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entries be stripped out before doing the rec?
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Ed Avis e...@... writes:
There are some odd cases where the local authority's name ends in
'(streetmap)'. Could that also be ignored?
In fact any parenthesized stuff could be stripped, for example
'Gladstone Park Gardens (off Broadfield Close)' in the GLA list
becomes just 'Gladstone Park
the check take account of
that?
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the Ordnance
Survey OpenData maps and data sets?
If so, mappers who are in favour of the new CTs could simply sign up now and
leave somebody else to worry about the legal nitpicking.
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this turns out and what Google's response is.
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' will be needed to join the two together. For this
reason
I normally map pedestrian areas contiguous to the ways that bound them, provided
you can walk between the area and the way at any point along its length.
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Ed Avis e...@... writes:
See section 1 of the CTs:
'You agree to only add Contents for which You are the copyright holder'.
I should have quoted a bit more:
'If You are not the copyright holder of the Contents, You represent and warrant
that You have explicit permission from the rights holder
don't think it
currently supports 'except' or 'not' queries. (According to the page below)
[[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Xapi]]
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wiki pages (!).
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clear that the new plan was to impose the
change unilaterally.
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share-alike.
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(which is, um, absolutely essential, since the current licence is
totally unworkable, as proved by the success of the project over the past six
years) is considered to outweigh the benefit of using the Ordnance Survey data.
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of the OSMF, nobody would be
crazy enough to throw out all the Ordnance Survey data (after so many lobbied
to open it up) in order to indulge some amateur-lawyering pedantry. It's just
not going to happen.
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. In city areas, where almost every street is named, you might
add
a note tag explaining why this one isn't.
Conventionally, roads tagged as highway=service don't show up on noname checks,
so it is not necessary to tag noname=yes on each of them. For service roads
being named is the exception.
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, in the end, considered unprotected and freely usable
for adding to a non-CC-BY-SA data set, then most of the map data would be
also, by the same argument.
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We haven't had any problems before the controversy over licences, and I expect
that once these troubles are resolved one way or another, there won't be further
eruptions. So I'd suggest not setting up any elaborate moderation mechanism
until it is proved to be necessary.
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the building and not just the plot of land it
stands in.
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not
sure if that's the right thing to do anymore - once it gets fixed in OS,
shouldn't we be taking down the error from the Catalog?
When there's a new release of the affected product(s) and we start using it,
yes.
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Now that we have identifiable changesets, the advice to create a separate user
account is no longer as essential as it once was. I would suggest using your
existing user account and doing the upload as one or more clearly marked
changesets.
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and ODbL only causes 'more work and
more problems'. We'd much prefer them to stop doing it!
As you say, I don't think either side is setting out deliberately to damage the
project. Although that will surely be the result if some compromise is not
reached.
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country to decide on its own copyright and other 'intellectual
property' laws, and we should not try to export more-strict regulations from
one country to another. The CC licences are carefully written to avoid doing
this. The ODbL, sadly, seems to take the opposite approach.
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be happy to help.
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in this country - then it can be said to exist. Unless
there is evidence to the contrary such as a street sign saying something
different.
(*) definitive, serving to define or specify precisely (M-W)
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data,
etc etc?
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David Groom revi...@... writes:
Our local delivery office has a post box which can only be used for franked
mail.
I use mailtype=franked. Tagwatch shows a few variants of this:
http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Great_britain/En/tags.html (search for 'franked')
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this be simplified in some way?
Uh, yeah, I'd suggest that the short name appearing on motorway road signs
be tagged as 'name', and if the other stuff really is a name for this
junction, it go in as alt_name.
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but nowhere
else, which makes the map look a bit odd.)
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having a name sign is
the exception not the rule.
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', 'part two' etc, but that doesn't seem a bad thing.
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and explain why the new version is correct, otherwise we could get into
edit wars, which would waste a lot more time than writing a changeset comment.
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a lot less time than posting messages on this list.
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or something equally Byzantine
on every single object, but nobody is pedantic enough to do that. So a short
note in plain English on the changeset helps.)
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indicates this road joins the other one to its west, and the aerial photo
shows at least a gap between buildings, so I'll assume it does.
But that long message is the exception.
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Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes:
I use Firefox 3.7 on Windows,
Are you sure?
You're right - it's 3.6.3. I have seen the same problem with other Firefox
versions and with Google Chrome, however.
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didn't make any mistakes that may have
mislead people about the changes I'd made.
Agreed. I think the comment should say 'why' not 'what', and if the change is
derived from something other than ground survey, cite the source used. It
shouldn't take more than a few seconds.
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whether his or her data, in turn, is better quality
than what's on the map.
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- so both whether to make a change
and what change to make are decided by human judgement.)
But still, you're right it is probably worth mentioning keepright - it is
another
kind of 'why' - so I'll do that in future.
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When a GPX trace file is larger than 100 kilobytes or so, the uploader web page
times out in the browser and the file isn't uploaded. I've got a backlog of
several long GPX traces to upload - is there some other way to do it?
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the page was loading.' I also tried using Chrome, with
similar results (it gets stuck at 35% complete, then times out with
'Error 101 (net::ERR_CONNECTION_RESET): Unknown error.').
I can upload large files to other sites (for example, photographs to Flickr)
without too much trouble.
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, that did the trick. The file has now uploaded as
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Ed%20Avis/traces/776516.
However, in the list of my GPX traces
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Ed%20Avis/traces it still shows as
'PENDING'. Perhaps it's just slow to update?
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address of 192.168.1.11.
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and see at which point the various sources were added, and what other changes
were made at the same time.
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filling in some of those 37% tonight.
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good indication that OSM is not complete, whatever definition you use.
In other words, checking against the OS data cannot prove that OSM is complete,
but it can certainly show that it is not.
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the OS data continue
to be used.
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data is
a better guide to what's actually on the ground than the existing OSM data.
I think we are all in agreement on the main point, though, which is that if
the two sets of data conflict then additional evidence (such as another new
ground survey) is needed to decide which is correct.
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it would be great to call it something other than
mapnik.
I guess the 'default OSM style' needs its own catchy name.
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Cloudmade's site, which has dozens of different styles to pick, makes no
attempt to give them descriptions beyond a poetic hint at how a style might
look.
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accurate. So I do agree that OS should not normally be used
to 'correct' existing data unless there is additional verification such as a
ground survey.
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the need for all the fuss?
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hobby for
people
who like to walk around with GPS units is only a side-effect. Anything which
helps us complete or improve the map is to be welcomed. (Personally, I have
found the OS data provides plenty of motivation to resurvey areas which I had
previously considered complete.)
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worried that we're going to burn the guys on the LWG out. They must feel
like they're in some kafka-esque dialogue with no upside for them.
I do think that's rather the situation here.
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idea of what
they can get away with) think twice before appropriating OSM data, what is the
evidence for the claim that the current licence is broken?
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OK, I will change my way of working for this task. The name tag will hold the
most likely name based on currently available information, even if it needs
a resurvey to be certain.
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comparison tiles. Would other people also find this useful?
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quality,
and if you had to pick one or the other, I'd go with OS by default unless
it's specifically tagged that OS is wrong.
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data sets.)
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.
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have
resurveyed
or otherwise checked so far.
If OS were infallible there would be no need to mark things for rechecking - we
could simply blast out all the conflicting names from OSM and use OS ones
instead. This is not the case.
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, but I'll leave it to others to retag if necessary.
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Barnett, Phillip phillip.barn...@... writes:
Well, the bit _I'm_ wondering about is 'Devon County'!!
Should now be fixed: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/5148177
I expect it'll take some time for Nominatim to pick up the new data.
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Chris Hill o...@... writes:
http://oscompare.raggedred.net
This appears to be down at the moment, could you have a look?
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the intersection is the right thing.
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line that criss-crosses it, which can
be confusing.
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. There could be surfaced
footways on a military base, for example, which nobody but authorized personnel
may use; but still they would be highway=footway, with other tags indicating
access.
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