Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Hello! Thank you for your response. We will start a wiki page, as per the
OSM guidelines as well. The only reason we have not yet is because we
wanted the community's thoughts and general approval. We want our wiki page
to account for what the community wants. Also, since the
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:image is used but not fully
approved, we may use this. It would be very beneficial for anyone to see a
picture of the tree being mapped. Thank you for your insights.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 7:17 PM Marc_marc  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> thanks for contacting the community
>
> Le 09.08.23 à 20:53, Harsha Somaya a écrit :
> > <
> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/50
>
> May I suggest you made a small wiki page about the project ?
> don't hope that ppl 'll read several threads to find faq about it :)
>
> maye the tittle should also be improved : automated in osm term mean
> you take data and change/add/delete in osm without humain review
> here it seems you want to allow our user to upload data
> into osm after human review, like any not-automated editor do
>
> > for the genus information, we are using |https://identify.plantnet.org
>
> as user of it, I find it very fine, it's better than an average human :)
>
> > Key:image , has rejected
> proposals.
>
> We're going to have to improve the wording (and even the arguments)
> because half the paragraph in question is wrong.
> the proposal was in fact rejected in 2013, which doesn't prevent the key
> from having de facto status, i.e. despite negative opinions in 2013,
> contributors thought it was an interesting attribute and used it,
> without any other alternative challenging the tag. This is (in my eyes)
> the 2nd status in terms of quality (the first being approved status,
> meaning that a majority of contributors think that the proposal is
> good... although we have seen proposals of poor quality being approved
> because the idea appealed, despite the problematic quality of the
> proposal).
>
> so if you want to use it, use it
>
> Regards,
> Marc
>
>
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
With gratitude,
Harsha


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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

thanks for contacting the community

Le 09.08.23 à 20:53, Harsha Somaya a écrit :

, has rejected 
proposals.


We're going to have to improve the wording (and even the arguments) 
because half the paragraph in question is wrong.
the proposal was in fact rejected in 2013, which doesn't prevent the key 
from having de facto status, i.e. despite negative opinions in 2013, 
contributors thought it was an interesting attribute and used it, 
without any other alternative challenging the tag. This is (in my eyes) 
the 2nd status in terms of quality (the first being approved status, 
meaning that a majority of contributors think that the proposal is 
good... although we have seen proposals of poor quality being approved 
because the idea appealed, despite the problematic quality of the proposal).


so if you want to use it, use it

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Hello! Thank you for your reply. I believe many of your concerns can be
addressed here: OSM Tree Automation Worldwide - Help and support -
OpenStreetMap Community Forum
.
No trees have been added to OSM yet. The user will be able to see their
tree point on an imagery basemap. Then can adjust the point/location of the
tree if it is not where it should be on the basemap if needed. As for the
genus information, we are using https://identify.plantnet.org/ - to help
with the plant identification part. They have a state of the art accuracy
of approximately 90% for classifying plants based on plant images alone. We
are not sure if we will upload the images yet because the key we wanted to
use, Key:image - OpenStreetMap Wiki
, has rejected proposals.
This is something we are debating/willing to add if the community wants.
Hope this helps understand the project a little better.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 6:14 AM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> from your answers I gather that you're approaching this with a certain
> amount of youthful enthusiasm that could lead to problems. It is good
> that you're discussing your plans so we can iron them out before you
> actually do anything.
>
> On 08.08.23 20:19, Harsha Somaya wrote:
> > 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes
> > sure that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
>
> You will have to make sure that the tree to be added is not already in OSM.
>
> I do not think that the GPS position alone is good enough to add a tree;
> it is very likely that if you do that, you will add trees in buildings
> and in the middle of roads. I think that it will be necessary for the
> user, when they take the photo of the tree, to also manually move a
> marker on the map to the correct location.
>
> Doing this, if the map is OSM, will put your location data under ODbL.
>
> > 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of
> > tree, maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus
> not)
>
> Are species and genus user-specified or will you be trying to determine
> those automatically from the photo? If the latter, I would advise against.
>
> How do you intend to upload the "image of tree" to OSM?
>
> Best
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
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>


-- 
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Harsha


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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

from your answers I gather that you're approaching this with a certain 
amount of youthful enthusiasm that could lead to problems. It is good 
that you're discussing your plans so we can iron them out before you 
actually do anything.


On 08.08.23 20:19, Harsha Somaya wrote:
4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes 
sure that no two trees at the same GPS can be added


You will have to make sure that the tree to be added is not already in OSM.

I do not think that the GPS position alone is good enough to add a tree; 
it is very likely that if you do that, you will add trees in buildings 
and in the middle of roads. I think that it will be necessary for the 
user, when they take the photo of the tree, to also manually move a 
marker on the map to the correct location.


Doing this, if the map is OSM, will put your location data under ODbL.

5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of 
tree, maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)


Are species and genus user-specified or will you be trying to determine 
those automatically from the photo? If the latter, I would advise against.


How do you intend to upload the "image of tree" to OSM?

Best
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Hello. I will answer your questions below.


   1. By what extent do users consent to putting their data into OSM? We
   ask the users directly if they consent to adding data into OSM within the
   app. If they say no, it is not added.
   2. "You should download existing OSM tree data, buffer by 49 feet (the
   math is a little more involved, but this should be a safe number to use),
   and delete any of your data that falls within the resulting polygon before
   uploading. " We can certainly do this. I can code that if any of the GPS
   locations of our trees are within X degrees lat long or X feet of an
   existing tree based on the Haversine formula, do not add to OSM.


On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 5:56 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Harsha Somaya 
> wrote:
>
>> The data on these trees is only added if the user consents.
>>
> To what exactly have these users consented?  Putting their data in the
> public domain?  To some other license? We need more specifics.
>
>
>> I am creating an open source app with my team. Licenses are built-in the
>> app.
>>
> We are not talking software licenses, but the license that applies to the
> data.
>
>
>> The GPS accuracy is about 16ft and is calculated from the phone's GPS
>> (phone location has to be turned on for app functionality;
>>
> That would be typical for a cell phone under ideal circumstances according
> to this US Government site:
> https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/, but the same site
> notes "However, their accuracy worsens near buildings, bridges, and
> *trees*."). But let's assume that your data is accurate to +/-16 feet and
> let's assume that existing OSM tree data is accurate to +/- 33 feet (10
> meters) (just an example, might be better in US). You should download
> existing OSM tree data, buffer by 49 feet (the math is a little more
> involved, but this should be a safe number to use), and delete any of your
> data that falls within the resulting polygon before uploading.
>
>>


-- 
With gratitude,
Harsha


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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Mike Thompson]

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 12:53 PM Harsha Somaya  wrote:

> The data on these trees is only added if the user consents.
>
To what exactly have these users consented?  Putting their data in the
public domain?  To some other license? We need more specifics.


> I am creating an open source app with my team. Licenses are built-in the
> app.
>
We are not talking software licenses, but the license that applies to the
data.


> The GPS accuracy is about 16ft and is calculated from the phone's GPS
> (phone location has to be turned on for app functionality;
>
That would be typical for a cell phone under ideal circumstances according
to this US Government site:
https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/, but the same site
notes "However, their accuracy worsens near buildings, bridges, and *trees*.").
But let's assume that your data is accurate to +/-16 feet and let's assume
that existing OSM tree data is accurate to +/- 33 feet (10 meters) (just an
example, might be better in US). You should download existing OSM tree
data, buffer by 49 feet (the math is a little more involved, but this
should be a safe number to use), and delete any of your data that falls
within the resulting polygon before uploading.

>
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

The data on these trees is only added if the user consents. Otherwise, it
is not. I am creating an open source app with my team. Licenses are
built-in the app. The GPS accuracy is about 16ft and is calculated from the
phone's GPS (phone location has to be turned on for app functionality; the
user can choose to share location or not). Since the app is open source, I
can not confidently say where all of our users will be distributed when
they capture tree images. I suspect primarily US users capturing trees in
their area. I am happy to answer any questions you may have and will look
into the import process. Also pasting a link to my colleagues discussion
regarding this:
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 2:35 PM john whelan  wrote:

> So to sum up these are trees that you have not personally inspected and
> added to the map but you are relying on a third party for the information
> and you can't be sure exactly where it is from nor how accurate it is?  Nor
> do you have any idea of the license on the data.
>
> Based on my interpretation of your reply, please don't do this.  If you
> must press ahead then at least follow the automated edit rules and go
> through the formal import process including checking the license is
> compatible with OSM.  Many open data licences are not.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 14:25 Harsha Somaya  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the link. Answering your question below:
>>
>> 1) what is the source of tree data--- from an open source app that allows
>> users to capture images of trees
>> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?-- an example
>> would be trees that are around my residential house, healthy trees
>> 3) where it would be added-- for now, mainly the US area
>> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes sure
>> that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
>> 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of tree,
>> maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)
>> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add-- In terms of
>> verify, we make sure it is a healthy tree that has not already been added
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 2:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
>> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>> 1) what is the source of tree data
>>> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?
>>> 3) where it would be added
>>> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees
>>> 5) which tags will be used
>>> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add
>>>
>>> Also, I want to echo comments from
>>>
>>> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/2
>>>
>>>
>>> Aug 8, 2023, 20:06 by hsomaya2...@gmail.com:
>>>
>>> Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an
>>> automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not
>>> want to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to
>>> process about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30
>>> min interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each
>>> having about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a
>>> central GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all
>>> clustered around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or
>>> suggestions for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all
>>> soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> With gratitude,
>> Harsha
>>
>>
>> [image: Colby] 
>>
>> Harsha Somaya
>>
>> (She/her)
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> [image: LinkedIn] 
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>

-- 
With gratitude,
Harsha


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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Aug 8, 2023, 20:19 by hsomaya2...@gmail.com:

> Thanks for the link. Answering your question below:
>
> 1) what is the source of tree data--- from an open source app that allows 
> users to capture images of trees
>
what is the license of this data?
how old is the oldest data you want to use? (say, tree recorded X years ago)

> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?-- an example would 
> be trees that are around my residential house, healthy trees
>
I am not looking for description of data, but some representative sample of 
actual data
and how it matches reality (for example is it offset from actual tree positions)

> 3) where it would be added-- for now, mainly the US area
> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes sure 
> that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
>
what if there is another tree close to it? Maybe the same offset by 10cm?
What if there is a tree row nearby?

> 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of tree, 
> maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)
> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add-- In terms of verify, we 
> make sure it is a healthy tree that has not already been added
>
how accurate is tree location?

>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 2:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <> 
> talk@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> 1) what is the source of tree data
>> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?
>> 3) where it would be added
>> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees
>> 5) which tags will be used
>> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add
>>
>> Also, I want to echo comments from
>> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/2
>>
>>
>> Aug 8, 2023, 20:06 by >> hsomaya2...@gmail.com>> :
>>
>>> Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an 
>>> automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not 
>>> want to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to 
>>> process about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30 
>>> min interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each 
>>> having about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a 
>>> central GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all 
>>> clustered around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or 
>>> suggestions for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all 
>>> soon. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>>  >> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> With gratitude,
> Harsha
>
> 
>
>
> Harsha Somaya
>
>
> (She/her)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   
> 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[john whelan]

So to sum up these are trees that you have not personally inspected and
added to the map but you are relying on a third party for the information
and you can't be sure exactly where it is from nor how accurate it is?  Nor
do you have any idea of the license on the data.

Based on my interpretation of your reply, please don't do this.  If you
must press ahead then at least follow the automated edit rules and go
through the formal import process including checking the license is
compatible with OSM.  Many open data licences are not.

Cheerio John

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 14:25 Harsha Somaya  wrote:

> Thanks for the link. Answering your question below:
>
> 1) what is the source of tree data--- from an open source app that allows
> users to capture images of trees
> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?-- an example
> would be trees that are around my residential house, healthy trees
> 3) where it would be added-- for now, mainly the US area
> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes sure
> that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
> 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of tree,
> maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)
> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add-- In terms of verify,
> we make sure it is a healthy tree that has not already been added
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 2:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> 1) what is the source of tree data
>> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?
>> 3) where it would be added
>> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees
>> 5) which tags will be used
>> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add
>>
>> Also, I want to echo comments from
>>
>> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/2
>>
>>
>> Aug 8, 2023, 20:06 by hsomaya2...@gmail.com:
>>
>> Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an
>> automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not
>> want to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to
>> process about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30
>> min interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each
>> having about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a
>> central GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all
>> clustered around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or
>> suggestions for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all
>> soon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> With gratitude,
> Harsha
>
>
> [image: Colby] 
>
> Harsha Somaya
>
> (She/her)
>
>
>
> 
> [image: LinkedIn] 
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Thanks for the link. Answering your question below:

1) what is the source of tree data--- from an open source app that allows
users to capture images of trees
2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?-- an example
would be trees that are around my residential house, healthy trees
3) where it would be added-- for now, mainly the US area
4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes sure
that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of tree,
maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)
6) have you verified quality of data you want to add-- In terms of verify,
we make sure it is a healthy tree that has not already been added


On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 2:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> 1) what is the source of tree data
> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?
> 3) where it would be added
> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees
> 5) which tags will be used
> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add
>
> Also, I want to echo comments from
>
> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/2
>
>
> Aug 8, 2023, 20:06 by hsomaya2...@gmail.com:
>
> Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an
> automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not
> want to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to
> process about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30
> min interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each
> having about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a
> central GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all
> clustered around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or
> suggestions for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all
> soon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
With gratitude,
Harsha


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(She/her)




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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

1) what is the source of tree data
2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?
3) where it would be added
4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees
5) which tags will be used
6) have you verified quality of data you want to add

Also, I want to echo comments from
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/2

Aug 8, 2023, 20:06 by hsomaya2...@gmail.com:

> Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an 
> automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not want 
> to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to process 
> about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30 min 
> interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each having 
> about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a central 
> GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all clustered 
> around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or suggestions 
> for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all soon. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an
automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not
want to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to
process about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30
min interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each
having about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a
central GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all
clustered around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or
suggestions for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all
soon.
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