Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
If you start with a mixer that runs 500 mV / radian (an RPD-1 at the typical 8
mV / degree + 10%) then -180 below that would be 0.5 nV. Since noise it
coherent close in, the DSB to SSB process nets you 1 nV out when you have -180
dbc noise.
With a capacitive IF port
and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
CHOP
Being able to calibrate the preamp + sound card frequency response using
the thermal noise of a resistor is convenient.
This is more difficult to achieve with a bipolar input stage
...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:25 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
CHOP
Being able
...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:25 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
CHOP
Being able to calibrate the preamp + sound
Von: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
If you start with a mixer that runs 500 mV / radian (an RPD-1 at the typical
8 mV / degree + 10%) then -180 below that would be 0.5 nV. Since noise it
coherent close in, the DSB to SSB process nets you 1 nV out when you have
-180 dbc noise.
Adding the
Hi
If the sidebands are un-correlated noise then they add as power (3db). If they
are correlated they add as voltage (6db). Noisy modulation processes produce
correlated sidebands.
Close in noise likely comes from a modulation process. Far removed noise is
unlikely to be a result of
NXP BF862, available from digi-key.
Don't these devices have relatively high flicker noise?
1/f corner is well below 100 Hz. Look at the noise voltage plots of
that audio guy I cited.
My results for the BF862 were the same shape, absolutely somewhat worse
in amplitude because I
I think, I'll test some Analog Devices ADA9848-2 in parallel. It's hard to
beat
that combination of noise, 1/f, bandwidth, offset stability and price.
Oooops, ADA4898-2
http://www.analog.com/en/amplifiers-and-comparators/operational-amplifiers-op-amps/ada4898-2/products/product.html
The link isnt particularly useful as guests cant view the attachments
and registration is disabled
Bruce
dk...@arcor.de wrote:
Wenzel Audio Amp referred to in this email. Perfect! I drive with it a
3561A and a 7L5! Works for me. The only problem is getting any more
2SK369.
Any
http://www.synaesthesia.ca/LNschematics.html
Is a better link, in that one can actually view the circuit schematics.
There are a few simple refinements that will dramatically improve the
low frequency PSRR of the single ended JFET circuits in the HPS5.1:
1) split the 3k3 resistor feeding the
The noise measurements for the HPSs 5.1 preamp:
http://www.synaesthesia.ca/LNmeasurements.html
indicate that while the high frequency noise is about 2.2x lower than an
optimised single ended 2SK369 preamp its flicker noise is far higher.
If one uses 5 2SK369's connected in parallel the flicker
Hi
I have the Hp phase noise system with the 35601A but use most the time the
Wenzel Audio Amp referred to in this email. Perfect! I drive with it a
3561A and a 7L5! Works for me. The only problem is getting any more 2SK369.
Any recommendations?
Thanks Bert Kehren
In a message dated
http://cgi.ebay.com/5-pcs-N-Channel-Transistor-2SK369-K369-Low-Noise-BL-/150471697656
Stanley
- Original Message
From: ewkeh...@aol.com ewkeh...@aol.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:07:25 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject
The Wenzel Audio amp is a little noisier than it need be and it has a
poor PSRR, so that a very low noise power supply with low ripple is
essential.
Its not too hard to improve the PSRR and the input noise of such a
current feedback amplifier.
There are JFETS (IF9030) with similar noise
On all phase noise measurements I use AGM batteries. specially for the
signal source to be measured. Keep six 12 V batteries for that around, every
thing from 7 to 20 Amps.
Bert
In a message dated 8/21/2010 7:33:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes:
The
In message 4a8e.56751f36.39a11...@aol.com, ewkeh...@aol.com writes:
On all phase noise measurements I use AGM batteries.
Be aware that chemical batteries can be incredibly noisy, in particular
wet or semi-wet types.
It is not periodic noise, so for PN measurements with sensible
averaging
On 22 August 2010 00:07, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:
In message 4a8e.56751f36.39a11...@aol.com, ewkeh...@aol.com writes:
On all phase noise measurements I use AGM batteries.
Be aware that chemical batteries can be incredibly noisy, in particular
wet or semi-wet types.
I am not seeing it, what should I use to measure it 3561 and 7 spec
analyzer do not show it?
Bert
In a message dated 8/21/2010 8:07:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
p...@phk.freebsd.dk writes:
In message 4a8e.56751f36.39a11...@aol.com, ewkeh...@aol.com writes:
On all phase noise
Wenzel Audio Amp referred to in this email. Perfect! I drive with it a
3561A and a 7L5! Works for me. The only problem is getting any more
2SK369.
Any recommendations?
NXP BF862, available from digi-key.
I have used it in a similar hookup with good success. Its virtue is the
low
Hi
A simple gain of 20 (26 db) amp using an OP-37 does a pretty good job in front
of a spectrum analyzer. For a sound card you need more gain.
Bob
On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:42 AM, dk...@arcor.de wrote:
Wenzel Audio Amp referred to in this email. Perfect! I drive with it a
3561A and a
Thanks Bert
In a message dated 8/21/2010 11:43:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dk...@arcor.de writes:
Wenzel Audio Amp referred to in this email. Perfect! I drive with it a
3561A and a 7L5! Works for me. The only problem is getting any more
2SK369.
Any recommendations?
NXP
On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
The AMC-123 can also be homebrewed by reading the
patent, which is listed on the data sheet.
I found it here:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3624536.pdf
Having read the patent, I find I'm still weak enough in the area of discrete
On Aug 20, 2010, at 3:41 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
It might still be available through Tyco/MAcom. They have continued to
make selected Anzac components. There was also an AM-123, which
was a TO-something can version.
My first quick scan didn't turn up any offered for sale, though I did dig
On Aug 20, 2010, at 5:11 PM, John Miles wrote:
Also, it looks like you (Mark) are only about an hour from Cerritos, where
the MUD ( http://www.microwaveupdate.org ) conference will be held at the
end of October. This could be one option for you. As part of the $35
registration cost, you get
In message 7c37.12cdef25.39a12...@aol.com, ewkeh...@aol.com writes:
I am not seeing it, what should I use to measure it 3561 and 7 spec
analyzer do not show it?
It is probably the 3561 not the 70k that has the best chance.
I am not aware of the precise characteristics of the noise, but it
Hi
I suspect you will have to hand wind the magnetics.
The 5109 was still in production last time I shopped for them.
Bob
On Aug 21, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Mark J. Blair n...@nf6x.net wrote:
On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
The AMC-123 can also be homebrewed by reading
Hi
There are a number of articles on the web detailing the art of getting one of
these to work. Since it's broad band feedback you need to be a little careful
with the layout and the transformer.
Bob
On Aug 21, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Mark J. Blair n...@nf6x.net wrote:
On Aug 21, 2010, at
On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:04 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
There are a number of articles on the web detailing the art of getting one of
these to work. Since it's broad band feedback you need to be a little careful
with the layout and the transformer.
Thanks, I'll continue digging.
--
Mark J. Blair,
It's still being made by Tyco / MaCOM:
http://www.macomtech.com/datasheets/AM-123_AMC-123.pdf
Adrian
Mark J. Blair schrieb:
On Aug 20, 2010, at 3:41 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
It might still be available through Tyco/MAcom. They have continued to
make selected Anzac components. There
On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Adrian wrote:
It's still being made by Tyco / MaCOM:
http://www.macomtech.com/datasheets/AM-123_AMC-123.pdf
Thanks! According to Avnet (the only one of their US distributors where I found
a price posted online), the price is around $600 each at quantity 5 for the
ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:
Thanks Bert
In a message dated 8/21/2010 11:43:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dk...@arcor.de writes:
Wenzel Audio Amp referred to in this email. Perfect! I drive with it a
3561A and a 7L5! Works for me. The only problem is getting any more
2SK369.
Any
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In message7c37.12cdef25.39a12...@aol.com, ewkeh...@aol.com writes:
I am not seeing it, what should I use to measure it 3561 and 7 spec
analyzer do not show it?
It is probably the 3561 not the 70k that has the best chance.
I am not aware of the precise
In message 4c703124.20...@xtra.co.nz, Bruce Griffiths writes:
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
NIST found that NiCd cells are very quiet at least for low load currents:
http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1133.pdf
Too bad they didn't include lead-acid in that test...
Perhaps its the gelled electrolyte that
That's not really a surprise. Alone the hermetically sealed flatpack
housings don't make these a bargain...
There's nothing wrong with building your own.
Btw. there was an article in the German 'UKW-Berichte' (VHF
Communications) 4/1977 featuring a two stage BFT66 + BFR34A Norton amp
for 144
Hi
One thing to head back to here:
What is being measured?
If the DUT is only as good as a 10811 and you have a 3561a, an AD797 is
overkill. That assumes you are running a RPD-1 or a high level mixer with
buffers. There aren't a lot of oscillators on the surplus market that will need
much
Mark
You've come to the right place - well, that is if you want to devote a
significant amount of your life in the pursuit of ever-more accurate
time and frequency measurements
If you've only got one source then you need to use the frequency
discriminator method (aka delay line method)
Mark,
you have the following options:
- HP (Agilent) E5052A/B or RS FSUP Signal Source Analyzer (works for a
single DUT, though limited to 1 Hz offset, normally useful for 10 Hz up
to 40 MHz).
- Compare two identical DUT's with a HP 3048A or similar PN test system
and subtract 3 dB, assuming
Hi
You can make a pretty good front end (mixer / amp / lock) for under $100.
That will let you measure phase noise with an audio spectrum analyzer.
Bob
On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Adrian rfn...@arcor.de wrote:
Mark,
you have the following options:
- HP (Agilent) E5052A/B or RS FSUP
On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:56 AM, Grant Hodgson wrote:
You've come to the right place - well, that is if you want to devote a
significant amount of your life in the pursuit of ever-more accurate time and
frequency measurements
:)
If you've only got one source then you need to use the
On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Adrian wrote:
- you may build your own HP 3048A alike system, but be prepared to invest
serious money and time, and much more time than you thought in the
beginning... (if that is what you're after, you'll have the most fun you can).
I did a quick survey of
On Aug 20, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
You can make a pretty good front end (mixer / amp / lock) for under $100.
That will let you measure phase noise with an audio spectrum analyzer.
I am intrigued by your ideas, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Oh, wait, I've already
Mark J. Blair wrote:
oscillator inside a Tbolt then I don't think that a frequency
discriminator will be sensitive enough, although I might be wrong.
I got the impression that for good OCXOs like the HP 10811 or
(supposedly) the OCXO in my TBolt, the delay line method wouldn't provide
enough
On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
On the 10811 production line, they would use Anzac AMC-123 amplifiers
to drive a +17 dBm mixer, and then amplify the IF output with a low noise
current amplifier like the Linear LT1028. You can easily homebrew
this setup. You will need to
Hi
Sounds like that's less than $100 on a home brew basis.
There are several variations you could try. None of them break the bank. All do
a quadrature test on a pair of OCXO's.
Bob
On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Rick Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote:
Mark J. Blair wrote:
oscillator
On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
On the 10811 production line, they would use Anzac AMC-123 amplifiers
How does this amplifier look for this application?
http://minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZFL-500LN.pdf
If I understand the specifications properly, the noise figure is better and
It is good that you asked this FAQ. Basically, what is magic
about the AMC-123 is that it has certifiably low phase noise,
guaranteed by design and characterization, although not specified
by Anzac. The other 99.9% of amplifiers that seem plausible, like
this one, do not have the sophisticated
On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
It is good that you asked this FAQ. Basically, what is magic
about the AMC-123 is that it has certifiably low phase noise,
guaranteed by design and characterization, although not specified
by Anzac. [...] Having a low noise figure is
to drive a +17 dBm mixer, and then amplify the IF output with a low noise
current amplifier like the Linear LT1028. You can easily homebrew
low noise _voltage_ ?
73, Gerhard dk4xp
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe,
Rick,
thank you again for having pointed me to the AMC123 that were just
available when you mentioned them.
Part of the magic is the 10 dB gain and typical +23 dBm output.
So, you don't saturate it with a 10811, which would be bad in terms of
phase noise, and, on the other hand, if you
dk...@arcor.de wrote:
to drive a +17 dBm mixer, and then amplify the IF output with a low
noise
current amplifier like the Linear LT1028. You can easily homebrew
low noise _voltage_ ?
73, Gerhard dk4xp
Oh yes, low noise voltage. The noise current of the LT1028 is
actually quite high,
Mark J. Blair wrote:
On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote:
It is good that you asked this FAQ. Basically, what is magic
about the AMC-123 is that it has certifiably low phase noise,
guaranteed by design and characterization, although not specified
by Anzac. [...] Having a low
Would anyone else like to suggest a known good low phase noise
buffer amplifier? Maybe something from a Fred Walls paper?
You can always build HF isolation amps by rigging MMICs and attenuators
together, but this will not reliably get you below -160 dBc/Hz. Bruce G.
has given some good
you have the following options:
- HP (Agilent) E5052A/B or RS FSUP Signal Source Analyzer (works for a
single DUT, though limited to 1 Hz offset, normally useful for 10 Hz up
to 40 MHz).
- Compare two identical DUT's with a HP 3048A or similar PN test system
and subtract 3 dB, assuming
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