I agree, this thread should stay dead. This is the last time I will reply,
for this reason...
however, I felt the need to point out, that the thread where I lost interest
in fighting about systemd is, here:
read this comment from that thread if you have interest:
I understand their arguments: They are envy! Because no one is more pure than
them and their software whatever Os they are using!
I said in the past, and that's the main reason for me to leave Trisquel
community that that thing of free software is just a concept, an ideal... In
practical
That's very cool, I just wish the Librem laptops were cheaper but that's a
great achievement and I wish them the best with regards to keeping that
status.
FreeSlack is.
Well, close enough. Unfortunatelly, GuixSD isn't from GNU. Thankfully,
Guix is. ;)
2018-01-01T00:36:44-0600 Caleb Herbert wrote:
> If you hate systemd, use GuixSD. It does not use systemd, and it's a
> GNU system distributed by GNU.
What is systemd? And why do you dislike it?
Uruk and Hyperbola are GNU systems surely, which they are surely committing
for our philosophy for freedom.
Here you go:
https://forums.puri.sm/
This.
If you hate systemd, use GuixSD. It does not use systemd, and it's a
GNU system distributed by GNU.
On Wed, 2017-12-27 at 21:22 +0100, calmst...@posteo.de wrote:
> Well, this is a rare moment where free software is broken by design.
>
> Obfuscated code is why I don't trust it. They intentionally make it hard to
> read.
Link to line of code in git?
> and moreover, it has stability security
> But yeah, I admit I was really angry. I don't like something being forced on
> me. Although, this is the fault of the distributions forcing systemd more
> than systemd devs themselves.
X is being forced on you. You'd have to write a lot of wrappers to get
programs to work without X.
> To my knowledge, there has never been a single person who has audited the
> entirety of Linux. It just doesn't work that way. With a large project like
> Linux or systemd, everyone works on a particular part (or particular parts)
> they are interested in.
Furthermore, has anybody audited
Your post doesn't do anything to address or refute the claims that Mason
made. Purism have a track record of being misleading when it comes to
marketing their hardware and their misguided efforts are damaging to the free
software movement.
Free computing with modern hardware isn't going to
You do realize the post numbers can change, right? And that mailing list
users don't even see post numbers at all?
Great.
calmst...@posteo.de wrote:
Well, this is a rare moment where free software is broken by design.
It's not clear what you mean by that. It's also not clear how either
systemd or pulseaudio (both free software) are examples of whatever point
you were raising there.
Whatever your problem with
I installed PureOS as a virtual machine the same day the FSF announced its
endorsement. Honestly, I like it a lot. I've always been a fan of Gnome and
personally can't stand the MATE desktop environment that Trisquel 8 is using.
I got rid of that and switched it to Gnome right away.
I took
Systemd is undoubtedly free software. Obfuscation is subjective, and is
entirely dependent upon the user who is reviewing the code. I cannot speak
for Roy Marples, but I think he would be a great person to contact due to his
experience in init systems. I greatly admire OpenRC's code.
The answers you seek regarding problems with systemd or redhat will not be
found on the Trisquel forums. As a forum veteran you will surely realize the
demographics of this forum, and it is also quite obvious the person you are
asking to reveal obfuscations within systemd init knows not what
See post #70
This is stressing us both out, let's just forget this pointless argument.
Neither of us will win. Even if you don't agree, I'm done for today. Maybe
longer...
PS though, next time this comes up if ever, don't flame the person just
ignore them.
Yeah, I give up, this is going nowhere. I cannot change your mind...
You can say your right if you wish, Don't get me wrong, it would be
pointless, but what are you fighting for I guess is what I wonder...
This is like religion or politics, it never bloody ends until one person is
the
Well the "systemd haters" as you put it, they do have the part right about
people like you defending it mindlessly no matter what anyone says or does.
Even if you were right about systemd, that doesn't change the fact that
systemd is supported by hostile developers, admins and people in
What reason? Some applications had some issues in the early days of
PulseAudio. Nowadays, it works great imho. Do you remember the days of OSS
and/or ALSA and/or aRts and/or EsounD and/or... It was a mess.
Okay this I will say I have no idea of what your talking about due to my
This video is so true.
Yep, we have a better chance of Donald Trump getting struck by lightning and
microsoft becoming like the gnu organization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNUGjFzenq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNUGjFzenq4
"One thing I like about systemd though is that it displays the entire
known jornal/log in one command and also tries to stop software
developers from resorting to dirty practices such as changing an
already-written line of the the journal/log."
Well first, thank you for not criticizing me for my
"Debian was actually the last major GNU/Linux distribution to adopt a modern
init system by default. There has to be a default. And it is a lot of work to
maintain init scripts or several init systems, especially sysvinit's horrible
Shell scripts.
Debian's technical committee *decided*
"Regarding init systems, the current setup with systemd on Debian is exactly
the same as its previous setup with SysV-init, or Guix's setup with GNU
Shepherd, or Ubuntu 14.04's setup with Upstart, just to name a few. No distro
goes to lengths to give options for different init systems in a
> Maybe there is even a market for this.
My macOS-used musician friends have been trained by Wirth's law to think that
they always need the most recent hardware. It would be much easier to
convince them to use a Corebooted and ME-cleaned laptop less than a few years
old than to explain to
One thing I like about systemd though is that it displays the entire
known jornal/log in one command and also tries to stop software
developers from resorting to dirty practices such as changing an
already-written line of the the journal/log.
2017-12-28T04:51:43+0100 calmst...@posteo.de wrote:
>
I also would like to note that the reason Hyperbola has rejected systemd
is the one related to "init freedom' (as they call it), the post in
which Hyperbola shows various issues with systemd is actually outdated,
but Hyperbola doesn't feel the need to update it currently. There are
some issues in
I like your detailed argumentation. Kepp up the good work! It's always a
reason to fire up my browser when there's an MBanana message waiting to be
read.
I wonder if it's just a self-amplifying echo chamber. Somebody, they've
forgotten who or why, decided he doesn't like Poettering, so
On Tue, 2017-12-26 at 08:01 +0100, enduz...@riseup.net wrote:
> RMS on PureOS giving a slide show. Is it conceivable or likely?
>
pt! xD
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That would be crazy.
--
Caleb Herbert
OpenPGP public key: http://bluehome.net/csh/pubkey
So Purism is a step up from System76.
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
> This would include Heads, Liberty BSD, CloverOS, and ConnochaetOS.
> This doesn't even include Uruk and Hyperbola since I assume they can't be
> listed as they are derivatives of already listed distro's.
> Equally important
> is why so many dead and un-maintained distros remain listed.
> I just want to ask if you know of ANYONE, who has completely audited
systemd in its entirety at all.
To my knowledge, there has never been a single person who has audited the
entirety of Linux. It just doesn't work that way. With a large project like
Linux or systemd, everyone works on a
Okay, I wasn't planning to respond again, but I apologize if I said you were
having a temper tantrum, but that being said,
I just want to ask if you know of ANYONE, who has completely audited systemd
in its entirety at all. OR if anyone has successfully forked systemd for any
reason.
But
I have all the same issues with Purisms branding and outreach others have
posted, and I have had posted before. I'm not going to dive down that rabbit
hole again here.
That said, Librem crushes crowd funding based on their questionable
branding/outreach. A few promising RISC V projects
Yep you see perfectly the point. Maybe there is even a market for this. And
it would be a perfect competitor to Purism. I ignore the numbers that would
make this business profitable.
> But pragmatically speaking, it also provide the possibility for some people
to achieve partial freedom with modern hardware. This is a value.
I agree with you here. If I understand correctly, your view is that the
service Purism provides is important and beneficial enough that in spite of
I am serious so stop lying.
Please for the love of god. STOP!
We both disagree with each other, clearly.
I am not your enemy. You are your own enemy.
No, they have not. I repeat: "Please be serious: either show us obfuscated
functions in systemd's code or do not reply (especially not with more
bullshit)".
I already gave you my links and they are indeed accurate.
There is a good reason Fedora, Arch, openSUSE, Mageia, Manjaro, Mint, Red
I am not spreading weasel words, systemd is crap. No one has freakin audited
all the code in systemd which therefore means it is dangerous.
geez... systemd lovers are so crazy.
I agree with you. The alternatives at the moment are:
- to buy and use old hardware with libreboot for web browsing, some text
editing (this could be good for a big percentage of people)
- to use the me_cleaner (https://github.com/corna/me_cleaner) on newer
hardware and having a full
The real slap in the face is going to be PureOS users coming here for support
because none exists on the the site where they got the software.
I cannot speak for Purism as a business, but I installed PureOS after I found
out it received the FSF's blessings. It seems to be a pretty nice out of the
box experience. Fairly up-to-date packages in comparison to the other FSF
certified distributions. I never really liked Gnome3, but I
I agree with Magic Banana's post 100%. You're using weasel words to spread
FUD about systemd. That's not constructive.
On 28/12/17 05:05, wrote:
> My last comment (#53) was a response to #51 but is showing up as a
> response to #52. I've noticed this bug before. I think it's because
> #51 was the last comment on page 1 when I responded and has since been
> pushed to page 2.
Out of curiosity, I am looking at
My last comment (#53) was a response to #51 but is showing up as a response
to #52. I've noticed this bug before. I think it's because #51 was the last
comment on page 1 when I responded and has since been pushed to page 2.
I really think your nitpicking, magicbanana. I also think this does not do
any good to the free software community to argue over things that have been
proven again and again. There is a good reason hyperbola, devuan, and other
distros have rejected systemd.
Just stop okay. Don't give me
I think this mischaracterizes things. I'm sorry that they're not being
approved as fast as people may like but the the resources for this are
limited. Donald hinted at this in the email announcement when he said that
maintaining a free distro is a task that needs everyone's help. He also
I think this is understood by most people. Proponents of Purism want to
concentrate on the other aspect, though, that is, claiming that Purism is
treated in an unfair way. WE should just take their marketing as fait
accompli when it's not.
My stand is that Purism is like any other company
Thank you for acknowledging that the issue is *not* whether Purism's laptops
have non-free components, but whether they disclose this. There are two
separate discussions here:
(1) Purism makes the minimum number of freedom compromises necessary to avoid
having to use older hardware. The
Technically, the Intel ME is not 100% removed from the Libreboot-compatible
laptops; there is a small amount of ME initialization code that runs in the
CPU's ROM, and cannot be removed, but since that code is read-only (i.e.,
cannot be modified), it doesn't count as software in the RYF
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html
Well, this is a rare moment where free software is broken by design.
Obfuscated code is why I don't trust it. They intentionally make it hard to
read. and moreover, it has stability security and privacy issues which I
don't really like.
It is made by the same people who made pulseaudio.
I find it highly unlikely. But we shall see.
Why systemd? It is free software, Trisquel uses it.
Would you please provide a reference the directly connects to Purism indicating
their hardware is free/open? I have never seen this poited out by Purism.
People keep mentioning it, and I can't find this info.
> Original Message
> Subject: Re: [Trisquel-users] FSF adds
PureOS is a good start for purism, BUT! and this is a big one, their hardware
is advertised as free hardware and isn't.
Their os is free, although sketchy imo due to systemd...
but most gnu/linux operating systems now have that flaw.
Regardless, it is an improvement that they were showing us
I'm glad to hear the process was indeed robust.
At the same time the issues I take with the process seem valid as well due to
the number of free distros out there that I haven't heard a peep about from
the FSF. This would include Heads, Liberty BSD, CloverOS, and ConnochaetOS.
This doesn't
yep but the doubts about this should make people be less strict in black and
white classifications. You cannot say that a x200 is completely free if you
don't know anything about some parts of it. It is nonsense. It is a grayish
field where there are many degree of freedom and not just black
RMS on PureOS giving a slide show. Is it conceivable or likely?
It depends on if that particular hard drive model gets UPDATES.
If it doesn't, it can be exempt from being classified as a computer.
I have to agree with you in here, but what do expect from some people that
apply the concept of freedom in hardware and software so strictly that some
of them use old hardware in the hope (they seem to forget the blobs on the
storage...) to have complete freedom? When they call you troll I
A waiting list could be too easy to misconstrue as endorsement.
By lifting the veil of secrecy a little bit, you've piqued my curiosity. I
take your carefully chosen words as "PureOS was put to slow lane because...
(something here)."
I wonder if you can share some information regarding other candidates for FSF
endorsement.
LibertyBSD, perhaps?
This was not the case for PureOS. Without giving away internal details, it
was actually a multi-year process and not some fast lane. It's probably the
longest endorsement process I've ever seen.
> there is clearly some effort being put into trying to be free as in freedom
I never said there wasn't. I've been pretty consistent in *not* criticizing
them for making freedom compromises for newer hardware. I've only criticized
them for intentionally hiding these compromises from
Not necessarily and I see it pretty regularly in my work. Purism, unlike a
community project has means and dedicated staff they can throw at "problems".
They can simply keep pushing the FSF to accept them and have the resources
force faster processing. Eventually the non-profit caves just so
> I worry that Purism may have paid for their status on that list based on
what I have seen from them over the years.
That would only be possible if the FSF is corrupt. I don't see any reason to
believe that.
ya, I think a bunch of them ended up in the Troll Lounge. Not sure if those
threads get purged or just don't appear on the tracking page. He was
certainly in more than two threads.
Here's Todds tracking page. Not much to see or read there. I only found two
threads he's been involved with.
https://trisquel.info/en/users/todd-purism
David,
Its important to recognize that Purism went out of their way to make sure
this community wouldn't support them. Todd Weaver (the main guy behind
Purism) has engaged in very unprofessional flame wars in this very forum
where he attacked long time supporters of Trisquel who in no way
"there is clearly some effort being put into trying to be free as in
freedom..."
To me, it seems like they've put more effort into marketing. Wash a baby and
let it go down the drain?
All I have to say is characterizing Purism as some sort of lecherous fiend
who just lies and would stab you in the back at the first opportunity is so
maddening for me. Not to get too philosophical, there is clearly some effort
being put into trying to be free as in freedom and you actually
Speaking of voting... I can't seem to get my voting through. Do I have to
comment/reply to be allowed to vote or something?
Purism are not upfront about their offerings. People might fall for their
nice marketing parlance but at the end of the day, it is just that,
sugar-coated words without real meaning.
One might give them credit for trying not so hard and failing miserably.
The OS is a separate issue and it
Well, what do you know, something that comes from purism that is ACTUALLY
PURE!
;)
Don't really trust them though and I won't be using the os just because of
systemd alone...
but yeah... that's not the only reason.
*cough librem cough*
A page of that sort does not appear to exist, unfortunately.
There seems no community around it. As I go to the website (which seems very
basic) I find no reference to mailing lists, IRC channel, forums, or anything
at all beyond a bug tracking system.
Is there no page to see which distros have requested fsf endorsement? It
would be good if there was a transparent "waiting list" which included the
dates when each request was made.
They could make a libre laptop, but the specs would have to be lower. I don't
mind that they compromise on freedom for more modern hardware. It's not
ideal, but there is a set of people who would be unwilling to use any of the
machines supported by libreboot, and I would much rather they use
ConnochaetOS, Uruk, Hyperbola, CloverOS, Heads.
I haven't spoken with any of those developers in quite some time, especially
ConnochaetOS, but I know the last time I did they were all seeking
certification.
Uruk and Hyperbola aren't?
I have said for a while that I feel Purism has some good intentions but they
mess up the message so badly some times.
Their business interests butt up against the moral ones and they let the
business side win.
I'm sure if they could make fully-Libre hardware they will be the first to
I have no issues with Purism except for the way they promote their laptops,
so I don't know what prior experience could be biasing me against the way
they promote their laptops.
Have you read the page I linked to yet? It's not like I'm cherry picking a
few potentially misleading quotes
Your reply was everything I expected it to be; thanks for showing me that
unfair bias is still alive and well!
PureOS is based on Debian testing.
Just a note: I don't like Purism either (I think I've made that clear
enough), but it's possible to denounce one activity while being in favor of
another. There's nothing wrong with PureOS as an OS as long as it's entirely
libre, which has been verified to be the case.
Cool. Not one I'll likely be using personally, but it's nice to have another
option.
I forget, is this based on Sid, testing, or stable? I seem to recall it being
the testing branch, but I'm not entirely sure (the website doesn't say).
I don't think any other GNU distro is currently seeking endorsement.
> The FSF article states that Purisms hardware is still not approved.
Yes, the FSF was very clear. I wish that Purism were equally transparent.
> its just the reality of tryign to run a business that costs millions of
dollars to keep afloat.
Minifree manages to survive selling only freedom
You're confusing PureOS, which is libre and warrants FSF endorsement, with
Librem laptops, which are not and do not. This is not your fault, but a
result of Purism being intentionally misleading at every opportunity.
> No, their laptops are not perfect now, but please show me a place where
they state/imply that they are.
I already have. The page I linked to
https://puri.sm/products/librem-15/
implies that the laptop has no freedom issues as strongly as possible without
making any explicitly false
downvoted, in the trollo hollo it needs to go, just like all that pure crap
:/
Most of the criticism of Purism that I see on this forum is a textbook
example of bikeshedding; rather than focusing efforts on criticizing the
people who explicitly, knowingly, and unapologetically make and endorse
proprietary software, those efforts are used to criticize a company about
1 - 100 of 108 matches
Mail list logo
