cd: Don't believe it Judy -Dave Hunt is a Calvinist. That's why DavidM likes his-He speaks the word that David wants to hear.
- Original Message -
From: David Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 12/1/2005 10:12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of
Hi Dean,
I don't know what exactly David Hunt is
(denominationally speaking) - I do know that he is DEFINITELY NOT a
Calvinist.
If you can get a hold of his book "What Love is sThis"
you would be convinced - He has done his homework and footnotes
everything
he has written in there. He has
Hi David, thank you for your response.
I am not an expert on Servetus and did not live in
Geneva so like you I am depending on written accounts by others -
and
it appears as though there are other opinions about the
situation in Geneva. In Dave Hunt's book "What Love is This?" P.63 he
Your quote from Dave Hunt's book is great. I have no problems with
hisfacts or how he explains the connection between Calvin and the City
Council. What he says below is exactly what I have been saying, and I hope
you can see that what he says is much different than saying that Calvin had
Dean wrote:
Calvin said God gave him his authority
to kill-God clearly did not do
Bill Taylor wrote:
Where did Calvin say that?
Dean wrote:
J. Calvin wrote:
Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put
heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly
and willingly incur their very
Well said, David. Your comments have not fallen
completely on deaf ears. I've very much appreciated the history
lesson.
Thanks,
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
David Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:12
AM
Subject:
DAVEH: Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Judy. No further
discussion from this end
Judy Taylor wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:12:37 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
How would you be able to discern truth
DaveH when you are already deceived by the
From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]cd: So what is
the capital crime?Blasphemy? Better read Titus 1:9-13 Wherewe are instructed
to silence the false teachers by sound doctrine and torebuke them
sharply-not kill them be show they are wrong.
BT: Yes, this is what the bishop-led Church is to do.
cd writes: Better read Titus 1:9-13
jt writes: Where in scripture does one find a
"Bishop-led" Church?
Titus 1.7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God;
not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to
filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a
Are you reading from the Latin Vulgate Bill? My
Bible calls them "elders" - yes they are to be "examples" to
the flock but Jesus is head of the Church and they are
at best undershepherds. How would it have been
possible for one of these men living in Geneva to reign
in John Calvin?
On Wed,
Are you reading from the Latin Vulgate Bill? My
Bible calls them "elders"
You might oughta check your reference, Judy. The
word is episkopos --fromepi, "over";
skopos, "seer" -- translated "bishop" in the KJV.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To:
Point takenBill - but are you saying that a
bishop is not an elder?
The apostle Peter called himself an elder (1 Peter
5:1)
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:46:21 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Are you reading from the Latin Vulgate Bill? My
Bible calls them "elders"
You
Judy -- what in the world could you possibly point to in Bill's writingin the most recent posts that cause you to think that he is making such a separation -- or that he is even discussing the use of these two concepts (read:words)? It appears to me that you are just looking for something to
Obviously you do not know what the thread is about
JD.
You need to read previous emails and give them some
thought before commenting.
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:02:05 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy -- what in the world could you possibly point to in
Bill's writingin the most
Judy, elders and bishops are the same thing in Scripture. The passage
that Bill quotes is "bishop" in the KJV. I thought that was the version of
your Bible.
You still don't get the situation in Geneva. John Calvin was brought
to Geneva to help them organize a "reformed" church. Calvin
[Original Message]
From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Date: 11/29/2005 11:51:11 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
cd: So what is the capital crime?Blasphemy? Better read Titus 1:9-13 Where
we are
- Original Message -
From: Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 11/30/2005 12:31:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
I thought perhaps a little separation was in order :)
- Original Message -
From:
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of
Satan-He was an evilman' says Dean Moorecd: So what is the capital
crime?Blasphemy? Better read Titus 1:9-13 Wherewe are instructed to
silence the false teachers by sound doctrine and torebuke them sharply-not
kill them be show they are
No, I am not saying that.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:47
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's
beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says
-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:45:28 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:26:04 -0800 Dave
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:03:47 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:26:04 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
DAVEH: Thanx for your advice on this, DavidM...especially
considering your time constraints.
Not that I want to open another
Here is the absolute truth. Calvin was a sinner, just like you , just
like me. God has all the facts and has treated him justly. It is not
something we need to worry about. There are people who need loving and
souls that need saving. You cannot do either with your nose in a book.
Terry
And the good thing is that if we never
figure out the truth about Calvin for sure, it wont matter
one whit. Although it would be nice to know the truth about this piece of
history, my walk with the Lord does not hinge upon what Calvin did/didnt
do one way or the other. iz
From:
How would you be able to discern truth
DaveH when you are already deceived by the
religion you were either born into or have
chosen to follow?
DAVEH: It seems pretty obvious to me that at least one of the
positions put forth on TT about Calvin is wrong, Judy. I don't quite
see how both you
Even a book about guns?
- Original Message -
From:
Terry Clifton
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: November 29, 2005 09:31
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's
beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
Here is the absolute truth. Calvin was a
[Original Message]
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Date: 11/28/2005 5:27:44 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
cd wrote:
At one point,it is true,Calvin wanted Servetus beheaded. Beheading
DaveH wrote:
Either wayit leads me to believe truth is pretty
illusive on TT. Forgive me for harping on that theme,
but it has become pretty apparent recently that truth
really isn't the focus of TT. If anything, it seems to be
more a place to argue truth without real truth being
all
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:12:37 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
How would you be able to discern truth DaveH when you
are already deceived by the religion you were
either born into or have chosen to follow?
DAVEH: It seems pretty obvious to me that at
least one of the
Judy: You are deceived from time to time yourself.
(Calvin being a case in point-at least in terms of your hyperbole) Yet are you
able to discern correctly on other matters. What a thing to say to DaveH! IMO
dearest Dave has a pretty good handle on TT in the 'deception
department'..
-
Dean, I have been spending too much time on e-mail and must back off. I
just want to make a few comments.
I am not a fan of Calvin. Please try to remember that. In the matter of
Calvin and Servetus, I am on the side of Servetus in the sense that I do not
support thought police. In other
I agree that I've been rescued from the miry clay a few
timesbut can you explain how I am deceived byCalvin
and Calvinism? Also what hyperbole?
Calvin's acts as the spiritual head of the city of Geneva are on the
record
Proverbs 20:11 tells us that even a child is known by
what he does.
[Original Message]
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Date: 11/29/2005 2:45:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
Dean, I have been spending too much time on e-mail and must back off. I
just
all of them,
jt? please address this question, too,as you describe 'the record'
for us
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:47:59 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Calvin's acts as the spiritual head of the city of
Geneva are on the record
Enough of them. jt
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:22:06 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
all of them,
jt? please address this question, too,as you describe 'the record'
for us
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:47:59 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Calvin's acts as the spiritual
exactly how many of
his acts are you directly aware of?
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:47:09 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Enough of them. jt
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:22:06 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
all of them,
jt? please address this question, too,as you
cd: So what is the capital crime?Blasphemy? Better read Titus 1:9-13 Where
we are instructed to silence the false teachers by sound doctrine and to
rebuke them sharply-not kill them be show they are wrong.
BT: Yes, this is what the bishop-led Church is to do.
cd: Calvin said God gave him his
cd: while I believe there was some "drifting" from
the origional thoughts of Calvin-I find that the "TULIP" is from the teaching of
Calvin.
Calvin nowhere advocates a limited atonement. While
I would agree that such could be construed as a logical outworking of his
theology,the fact remains
I thought perhaps a little separation was in order
:)
- Original Message -
From:
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 10:29
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's
beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
You, David, write as a student of theological history. This is a fair
treatment of Calvin. Thanks for this.
- Original Message -
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: November 27, 2005 19:39
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:39:58 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dean
wrote: -No I did not read the entire work-but as you know
we can know a tree by its fruit-when A Saints plan and carries
out a gruesome death of another Christian and later shows no
remorse they have
What in the world is "theological history?" Is it
religious history revised every seven years
or so as is secular history? How about fair
treatment for Servetus? He may have been a
deceived astrologer but he was not a
murderer.
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 05:47:15 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL
DAVEH: So where's the truth? Judy posted a pretty compelling argument
that was diametrically opposed to DavidM's comments. Which is correct?
Lance Muir wrote:
You, David, write as a student of theological history. This is a fair
treatment of Calvin. Thanks for this.
--
There is more history to this than you are considering. If you want a more
objective historian's viewpoint who still sides against Calvin, consider
Schaff's History of the Christian Church. You can read his treatment at
http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm
The facts you mention
DAVEH:
So where's the truth? Judy posted a pretty compelling
argument that was diametrically opposed to DavidM's
comments. Which is correct?
All you have to do, Dave, is read more history from both sides. What you
find is that many people spin the facts however they want to spin it. The
DAVEH: So where's the truth? Judy posted a pretty
compelling argument that was diametrically opposed to DavidM's
comments. Which is correct?
All you have to do, Dave, is read more history from both sides. What
you find is that many people spin the facts however they want to spin
it. The
There is more history to this than you are considering. If you want a
more objective historian's viewpoint who still sides against Calvin,
consider Schaff's History of the Christian Church. You can read his
treatment at http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch16.htm
I did go to and read
[Original Message]
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Date: 11/27/2005 7:39:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
Dean wrote:
-No I did not read the entire work-but as you know
we can know a
cd wrote:
At one point,it is true,Calvin wanted Servetus beheaded. Beheading was
employed for civil offences, and Calvin wanted it to appear to be a civil
matter rather than a religious one. But as there were no grounds for this,
the idea had to be given up.( Fisk, Calvinistic Paths Retraced.
David, I have Will Durant's book on the Reformation and
some other historical
type works that say much the same as what Dean is
writing. Why do you call
these ppl "enemies of Calvin?" I certainly would
not seek something written by
a "Calvinist" for an objective view and I don't believe
you
DAVEH: Thanx for your advice on this, DavidM...especially considering
your time constraints.
Not that I want to open another can of worms, but in light of my
discussion (if it could be called
that) with Perry and whether or not there is any truth to be found on
TT, these exchanges you are
[Original Message]
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Date: 11/25/2005 3:16:37 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil
man' says Dean Moore
Dean wrote:
I had the set ...
You HAD the set? Do you still have it? Did
Dean wrote:
-No I did not read the entire work-but as you know
we can know a tree by its fruit-when A Saints plan
and carries out a gruesome death of another Christian
and later shows no remorse they have nothing that I
want to study to find truth.
Such a comment tells me that you do not
Read and noted, thanks,
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 9:24
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's
beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man'
Not my spelling just my typing skills my 2 typing fingers trip over one another especially when I hit speeds of upwards of 10 words per minute! It is a good thing I do not get paid for my typing skills at work.(hit the key to the left of d)sepends one of the most difficult to type words
While you are busy defending yourself , did you get my point? -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:28:14 -0800 (PST)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
Not
What is your point? You are INTREATING me? Your point is you have no hope of dealing with the issues and haveRUN out of caricatures and false accusations so you must get the focus on other things.You have not answered my questions either. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:While you are busy
You know, I was going to take time to answer two of your longer posts. I saved them for that purpose. But, as it turns out, I realized yesterday that I am talking to a person who defends the Received Text (that would be a greek thingy) while, at the same time, having no regard whatsoever for
Translation I was gonna but I am NOT able. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:You know, I was going to take time to answer two of your longer posts. I saved them for that purpose. But, as it turns out, I realized yesterday that I am talking to a person who defends the Received Text (that would be a
You got it !! -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:45:36 -0800 (PST)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
Translation I was gonna but I am NOT able.
[EMAIL
Translation:I still don't get it![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:You got it !! -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:45:36 -0800 (PST)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says
Obviously spoken by someone who has never read the
man. Not one who has ever read 'The Insitute' would ever say such as this!
Borrow the 2 volume set, Dean. Prayerfully, give it a few hours. You may
thereafter wish to apologize.
cd: I had the set-I see a lost man trying to understand the bible what part did you like? Calvin used Luke 14:23 as an excuse to put believers to death.Then the master said to the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges,and compel to come in,that my house may be filled.
- Original
Cd: 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean
Moore
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:24:02 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Obviously spoken by someone who has never read the man.
Not one who has ever read 'The Insitute' would ever say such
as this!
Borrow
cd: Wow what did I do to deserve such a sister in Chist-O I know I believed in the son and because of that I lost my sisters-now I have a better one. Thank you Judy.
- Original Message -
From: Judy Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
Paul did much the same thing. -Original Message-From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:54:50 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
cd: I had the set-I see a lost man trying
What? Did Paul burn no telling how many men and
37 women at the stake for what in his opinion
was heresy?
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:17:55 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Paul did much the same thing. -Original
Message-From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED]To:
AND I DARESAY Judy, that your invective-filled
language on TT would equal or surpass that of John Calvin WITHOUT QUESTION!! (In
all candor so would mine, Kevin's, Dean's, John's, and Linda's). The
'unnamed' regularly display a model of 'engagement' that we all might
aspire to.
-
What "invective" filled language Lance?
Examples please
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:36:37 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
AND I DARESAY Judy, that your invective-filled
language on TT would equal or surpass that of John Calvin WITHOUT QUESTION!!
(In all candor so would
I've always thought you unaware of the hurt (read
'invective-filled language) you do to others through your speach, Judy. I stand
by that. However, this doesn't mean you don't do it. It just means that you
don't know you're doing it, IMO.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Oh the ignorance of those who don't see things the way
you do again Lance along with the fact that you are unable or
unwilling to produce an example of invective filled
language coming from me. Let's see "INVECTIVE"
Noah Webster 1828 - Invective Noun A railing speech or
_expression_;
Dean wrote:
I had the set ...
You HAD the set? Do you still have it? Did you ever read the entire work?
Dean wrote concerning Calvin:
... I see a lost man trying to understand
the bible what part did you like?
What about most of it? Very little of it involves burning heretics at the
Well you knowDon't you?.. Wada you some kinda IDIOT or sumpin?Lance is so crooked he cant see a theif and he continualy leaves out his leaders name. Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What "invective" filled language Lance? Examples pleaseOn Fri, 25 Nov
What "invective" filled language Lance?
Examples please
Oh the ignorance of those who don't see things
the way you do again Lance along with the fact that you are unable or
unwilling to produce an example of invective filled language coming from me.
Let's see "INVECTIVE"
For those of us who geniuinely have difficulty in understanding your point. Does IDIOT qualify. You do not have to answer, (as if you would - someone has a blind spot) we already know.Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:What "invective" filled language Lance? Examples pleaseOh the
Ad homs aside, Kevin: who called whom an
idiot?
- Original Message -
From:
Kevin
Deegan
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 7:37
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] 'Calvin's
beliefs are of Satan-He was an evil man' says Dean Moore
Pay attention in class. Where have you been? AMAZING \()/ asleep at the wheelTaylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ad homs aside, Kevin: who called whom an idiot?- Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 7:37 PM
You are Bill and not Lance who made the
"accusation" to begin with but apparently you two are open to
the same kinds of thoughts.ATSTthe
two of youare either unaware or ignorant as to just how patronizing and
arrogant most of what
you write to the list is for others.
Most everything
See JT you just proved their point by accusing the I'm smarter than you crowd of being Arrogant! Why can't you just accept it. They are superior not Arrogant.Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are Bill and not Lance who made the "accusation" to begin with but apparently you two are
Judy -- invective is your middle name when it comes to "communicating" with the opposition. Ditto Deegan. Its not even close. Youaskd for examples when, in fact, you are asking us to convince you that we are right. Impossible. And you have taken your cue from Terry quite well. Now we can expect
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 00:28:46 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy -- invective is your middle
name when it comes to "communicating" with the opposition.
Ditto Deegan.
But I don't see anyone on TT as "the opposition" JD
nor do Ibelieve God is political so I don't
Paul is not saying that ignorant or stupid people have been intrusted with the gospel of Christ.He could not be! ENtrusted: Put into the care or protection of someone[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Judy -- invective is your middle name when it comes to "communicating" with the opposition.
Ignorant, stupid : akin to "idiot."
Kevin -- take a look at your misspellings :
It sepends on how one looks at it
How about the sentence strucre and the meaning
Indifference is active oposition in His book!
Like I said -- it is easy.
-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan
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