The kilolitre (kL) should be used as a substitute for cubic metre in public
discourse. It's the same volume as a cubic metre. Kilolitre (kL) is easier to
write and its symbol is easily formed from existing SI symbols. Kilometre also
is easier to speak than cubic metre and it's consistent
I don't find pouring milk for the Costco container any more difficult to pour.
Stan Doore
- Original Message -
From: John M. Steele
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:37 PM
Subject: [USMA:43451] Re: USC units spread to the UK - and no-one notices!
NIST SP811 deprecates the use of prefixes greater than one with the liter (and
prefixes less than one with the metric ton. As SP811 closely parallels
ISO31-0, it may have similar text, but I don't have a copy to confirm this.
The FPLA and UPLR both require the cubic meter and disallow the
I've checked the volume (gallon in a 4-litre jug). I wrote the article
about the new 4-litre jug in Metric Today.
Costco has prepared for the conversion to selling milk in 4-litre jugs.
If one goes to the USMA article, it tells and shows how much more efficient the
4-litre
Is your Costco using a 4 L or 1 gallon fill?
I have never tried them as I am (slightly) mad at my Costco for using a 1
gallon fill in a 4 L container. However, the picture I have seen for the 4 L
fill looks VERY full; it looks like pouring could be a problem.
--- On Sun, 3/8/09, STANLEY
Labeling patterns show be changed to show metric first.
Stan Doore..
- Original Message -
From: Jeremiah MacGregor
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: [USMA:43399] RE: Mistaken blather from a correspondent on another
list
The
Thanks for the link to the article. There was no table in the article.
I extracted the data given in the article to simplify reading for USMA
readers.
Stan Doore
- Original Message -
From: John M. Steele jmsteele9...@sbcglobal.net
To: U.S. Metric Association
I only was showing that metric was used exclusively in the article.
Writing in the article needs to be more clear.
Stan Doore
- Original Message -
From: Bill Hooper
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:43 AM
Subject: [USMA:43362] Re: SI in
The 4 L jug is filled with a gallon of milk which must be sold by the gallon
due to government laws and regulations.
Stan Doore
- Original Message -
From: John M. Steele jmsteele9...@sbcglobal.net
To: U.S. Metric Association usma@colostate.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:11 AM
Are you sure about that? Can you cite a law?
I can't see an exception for milk in the FPLA, and sectio 1461 seems to be
pretty clear that it supercedes state law, requiring less or different
information..
I believe it must be dual labelled and could be sold in either a round
Customary or
I note that a certain pro-imperial UK contributor to the site has made many
statements about life in the UK. When challenged, he claims that his version of
events is true.
I intend to demonstrate that it's possible to write an article that is
completely, totally utterly true, but gives a
Carleton,
200 mm is not 8 inches. It is 7.874 inches (almost 7-7/8 inches). 100 km (100
000 m) of tickets would be about 3 937 008 inches. Dividing this number by 8
would give you 492 126 tickets instead of 500 000. Dividing it by 7.875 would
only give you 499 937.5 tickets. Thus using
Norman is right. People who make the cars will do so in the simplest way
possible. If dropping 8 mm from the numbers makes it easier or even possibly
adding 92 mm to make it an even 26 m would still be within the acceptable
tolerances then it would be done. Do you happen to know what the
Obviously not as common as you imagine it to be. As noted it exists on older
signs and is not used when newer signs are installed. The m is the legal
symbol for the meter and since the UK is now a predominately metric country
they will come into conformity but only as time and funds permit.
It seems to me that the U.S. and the UK share one thing in common with
measurement: a jingoistic fear of changing to metric.
A past issue of Metric Today (March-April 2005) theorized on the origins of
this fear, part of which is a kind of metrological nationalism. The editorial
stated, in
If it was true that the server side had an imperial equivalent to see then the
server would be able to tell him exactly what he purchased in pounds and
ounces. The server would not vaguely make a reference to just over a pound,
but state it as 1 lb and xx ounces. There would be preciseness.
Jerry..can I direct you the site www.expedia.com. It is a wonderful site where one can purchase airplane tickets and hotel reservations and everything.
May I suggest a flight to London and a few nights stay at a hotel? That way, you can check everythng out in the UK before asking tons of
Assuming Wikipedia is correct, the tolerance of 1435 mm gauge track is 1423 mm
to 1460 mm for track rated for 60 MPH travel. I assume lower grade (lower
speed) track is allowed a wider tolerance. Thus, that 0.1 mm confusion in
nominal is entirely negligible.
I assume the tolerance is
John,
Are you sure the scale read 486 g? I was under the impression that the scales
only display to the nearest 5 g. So the best you can see is either 485 g or
490 g, depending on which way it rounds. This being the case, then it is
impossible for anyone to get exactly one pound if that is
Ken,
Would motorways be more likely to show distance signs then city streets? Most
of the signs on our city streets don't give any measurements or distances. The
only ones I encounter on my drive about are speed limit signs, and they just
show a number, like SPEED LIMIT 35. Distance signs
Maybe there is a law somewhere that the amount has to be in rounded English
sizes and filling a 4 L container with 4 L of milk is illegal. The 4 L
container may also be filled with 4 L when the container is used in other
countries where liters are required by law.
Jerry
A number of months ago, I called the dairy that produces this product for
Costco, as a first step in a campaign to get other regional stores to stock the
product. I wanted to get info on how to order it, like a SKU., etc. I also
posted a series of links on this group and the Facebook group
Paul:
What you say is perfectly true, although the US and the UK have different
reasons for maintaining a perception of national identity (and I will also
include Canada here, as I lived there for very many years and experienced that
country's, as yet incomplete, switch to SI).
In the UK's
I was unaware of those laws and regulations ... depressing. That would make
the battle harder to win, though someone like a Costco could probably make
it happen if they had the will.
--
From: STANLEY DOORE stan.do...@verizon.net
Sent:
Some years ago in western New York, a store actually came out with a 3 L
container that was not only spill proof but was made to prevent light from
destroying the Vitamin D in the milk. The container failed for two reasons.
1.) They didn't stop selling the gallon size.
2.) The price for 3 L
I agree, especially if the metric is the primary. But there must be a fear
that if it is done that people would not buy the product. I'm sure they
changed the size from 16.9 oz to 17 oz due to complaints.
Jerry
From: STANLEY DOORE stan.do...@verizon.net
Does the law prevent them from filling it with 4 L but stating that it contains
a gallon? The label could read:
4 L (1 US gallon) or 1 US gallon (4 L).
As long as the consumer is getting more then the stated amount then what is the
harm in the over fill?
Jerry
I think people who are opposed to change for the sake of just opposing will
hide behind patriotism when they can find no other justification for their
opposition. I have no problem with some people opposing, as long as they don't
interfere with someone Else's right to move forward. Of course
Interesting. That is a 27 mm tolerance. The average of the two extremes is
1441.5 mm. This means that the railroads track widths can easily be stated as
1440 mm as it will fall within the tolerance. This also means that vehicles
built for the railroads may also experience such a large
I guess this is an example of government interfering on behalf of US Customary
against metric. So much for government telling us what to do.
Jerry
From: Victor Jockin vjoc...@hotmail.com
To: U.S. Metric Association usma@colostate.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 8,
John,
BTW, welcome to the USMA Listserver! I've enjoyed your contributions very much.
Thank you, also, for this analysis of the UK metrication situation.
Recent Internet rumors have it that the U.S. dollar, the Canadian dollar, and
the Mexican peso are to be replaced by a new North American
As an American who has been there. let me try to answer. UK motorways have
somewhat more distance marking than American freeways. Highways outside towns
have A LOT more distance marking than similar US roads.
Few of the roads are on any kind of a straight grid system, and you frankly
need
My calculator says 37 mm. However, other articles say the forces tend to widen
the gauge, and ultimately that sets the need for maintenance. So I would guess
a fraction of that is initial tolerance, and part is allowance for widening
over time. I couldn't find details online though.
Also
Can I be his personal tourist guide? ;-)
From: br...@bjwhite.net
To: usma@colostate.edu
CC: usma@colostate.edu
Subject: [USMA:43494] Re: Jerry's questions regarding imperial fuel fish
sales in the UK.
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:31:50 -0700
Jerry..can I direct you the site www.expedia.com.
Nope, euros. This is France.
Carleton
Who took the picture and bought the beer
From: Jeremiah MacGregor [mailto:jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 01:38
To: carlet...@comcast.net; U.S. Metric Association
Subject: Re: [USMA:43460] RE: Mistaken blather from a
I was aware that the UK uses m to mean miles, but, wow! When I first saw
this blue services sign photo, I wondered how much warning a six-meters-ahead
sign was intended to give. I'd prefer at least a kilometer's warning (grin).
How does this type of sign affect travelers at the Northern
Yes, I know that very, very well. But the question was “how many tickets will
the print head produce before it has to be replaced?” And I came up with a
nicely rounded 500 boxes. Close enough for government work!! And done in five
seconds, even, and in my head!
Please note, too, that
No one “wanted” m to mean miles. That was just an observation of what I saw on
some signs.
Carleton
From: owner-u...@colostate.edu [mailto:owner-u...@colostate.edu] On Behalf Of
Jeremiah MacGregor
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 12:14
To: U.S. Metric Association
Subject: [USMA:43492] Re:
You're quite correct, Carleton. The use of 'm for miles' is merely an
extension of how it's always been' rather than some 'imperialist war effort'
If one looks around there are probably plenty of other examples of things like
this. Measurement related and not.
(I won't start a thread
Have you noticed something new here Jerry?
On the other WM board, Stephen claims to have seen this machine in ONE
location (the fish counter) in ONE store (Loudwater)
Now, he appears to be saying that all Tesco server side scales have imperial
displays on the screen.
How does he make this
I'm going to go totally off-topic for a moment here.
If I visited New York, would that make me an expert on the entire USA?
Why should visiting London answer all Jerry's questions on the UK then?
There's a lot more to the UK than one overpriced overrated city.
--- On Sun, 3/8/09,
In the UK, the most common scales used in supermarkets are of 15 kg capacity by
5 g divisions.
Other patterns commonly found are 6 kg by 5 g and 6 kg by 2 g.
The scales that are used for trade must comply with Class I, II or III (Class I
being the most accurate with the smallest scale
The US standard rail gage was derived from the British standard gauge of 4ft
8½in (1435.1 mm). However the Irish works out in round numbers in both
metric and imperial units - 1600 mm differs from 5ft 3in by 0.2 mm - well
within tolerance limits.
-Original Message-
From:
Standard guage all over the world is 1435 mm. However Russia (and the old
USSR, as well as some satellite states such as Finland) used - quite why for
totally metric countries - a gauge of 5' 0 (1520 mm). Ostensibly that was
to preserve Russian sovereignty by preventing through running of
Ken,
London is for the most part the hub of airline travel to and from the United States. I never once tried to sum up the UK bylooking at London. If you left the US by air, you'd most likely end up in London on the other end.
That being said, if you came to NYC it wouldn't make you an expert
John,
You wrote Many of the UK's current laws and directives now come from
Brussels rather than Westminster, and a good proportion of the UK population
resents this.
I am not sure that I agree about a good proportion of the UK population
resenting membership of the EU - most people are
There are imperial signs all over the UK. The vast majority do not have units
marked. Miles are assumed.
A sign giving the distance to York would say York 10. It would not say York
10 m (unless it was an obsolete motorway sign) and it would not say York 10
miles
Similarly, a 30 mph speed
I don't know why the Russian chose to use a different gauge to the rest of
Europe, but according to this reference
(http://home.fonline.de/fo0126/geschichte/groessen/mas13.htm#ank2 German
language) the Russian foot was the same as the English foot. The Russians
adopted the metric system in 1917,
Martin - would you agree with me that 'anti-EU' sentiment has grown slowly from
when it (the EU, or common market) was actually quite popular in the 70's?I
equate this with more and more sovereignty being handed over to Europe over the
years (and via treaties etc). I think that a lot of
Brian - you probably know that London is a good hub (from the USA) for
anywhere in the UK with frequent and cheapest prices going in to Heathrow and
Gatwick.From there you can get a train that can take you virtually anywhere in
the UK. Or hire a car.What I'm saying is - *I* know where
Stephen asked Will 1/4 m do? and attached a picture from somewhere in Wales
stating
P
1/4 m
Wonderful! This gives me an opportunity to expose Steve's two-facedness!
Firstly, a bit of history. There's an organisation called ARM (Active
Resistance to Metrication) in the UK whose main
The list is to contribute to - not a place to monitor just one person's
contributions to make them 'wrong' all the time (despite how consistently
correct they have been).
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:50:48 -0700
From: k_cooper1...@yahoo.com
Subject: [USMA:43523] Re: Jerry's questions regarding
The pedestrian crossing 100 m sign is definitely unlawful. Some people would
report it to the authorities simply for being metric.
One question though - when you saw it, were you confused by it? Did you think
it meant miles?
Btw, I strongly suspect that the No right turn for 10 m sign is
Paul
These signs are not as common as you would imagine. White text on blue signs
denote motorways, and there are only around 3500 kilometres (2200 miles of
motorway) in the whole of the UK. Anyway, most UK motorway services are the
nastiest, most depressing rip-off merchants you will find.
If you see a long distance sign to a city/town or a Service station on a UK
motorway it will very likely have a numeral followed by an 'm'.
That is the way it is, photographically, accurately, definitively.
*ALL* countdown signs show two pre-exit signs with 'm' for miles. These are
usually 1
Lets get this right..
You are suggesting that a sign stating 100 yards 100 llath is not confusing,
when you have previously stated that a sign stating 100 yards 90 metres will
not be understood by the vast majority of UK citizens?
In addition, you have previously stated that there is no
My wife emailed you to ask why you were using her as cannon fodder.My wife has
more than one email address - she created one to email you to ask you why you
needed to use her.Old legacy email addresses have her maiden name.I have no
need to answer the other points - I've proven the situation
So what this all means is that all of the sub-millimeter lengths that those
opposed to metric would insist on being there is all nonsense. A 1440 mm gauge
would work just as well as a 1430 mm.
Jerry
From: John M. Steele jmsteele9...@sbcglobal.net
To: U.S.
As I said, I couldn't find the details online. However, I would guess that
something like that or a little more is a reasonable as installed tolerance
with the rest of the range reserved for wear over time.
--- On Sun, 3/8/09, Jeremiah MacGregor jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com wrote:
Look closely at the currency symbol. It looks a lot like the UK pound symbol
and not the euro symbol.
Jerry
From: Carleton MacDonald carlet...@comcast.net
To: U.S. Metric Association usma@colostate.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 2:03:28 PM
Subject:
Since the road department in the UK uses metric to measure out the distances,
then even if a sign says 400 yards it doesn't mean that it is 400 yards if it
is really placed at a 400 m distance from point of origin. Then the word yards
is just a replacement word for the meter. If this sign is
London is for the most part the hub of airline travel to and from the United
States
Is it? Where's the one point on UK soil that Elvis Presley visited?
Flights from Manchester or Glasgow go directly to the USA and have the added
advantage of avoiding having to go to London first (for anyone
Nope, its still euros. Maybe not written with great precision, but still.
Carleton
Who took the picture, bought the beer, paid the specified amount in euros,
and got euros in change.
From: Jeremiah MacGregor [mailto:jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 18:17
As I said, the existence of signs with the letter m for miles would be older
signs. I didn't doubt they exist. The sign in your picture obviously looks
older and would agree with my statement and the information presented by
others. Do you have any pictures of new signs showing the m for
Only one other person does the 400 yds = 400 metres thing.The same person who
created the 500 g pound for the UK.
400 yards means 400 yards.1/2 a mile is 1/2 a mile.
Many years ago a lot of 'slippery road' signs went up using 'm'. When they
were replaced they had 'yd' amounts that were
But is the use of m for miles found on newer signs?
I would think that with the m as the accepted standard for the unit meter, the
UK road department will no longer use the m for miles when they erect new signs
or replace old signs. I don't expect them to remove the m where it still
appears
Coincidence.
There are many 'm' signs on the motorways - eg all exits have at least two -
new or old.
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:38:07 -0700
From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com
Subject: Re: [USMA:43512] Re: Jerry's questions regarding imperial fuel
fish sales in the UK.
To:
That is a very interesting point. Also wouldn't it depend on what we visit?
If I stay away from gas stations and super markets and just drive up and down
motorways I may be convinced the UK is fully imperial. If I had Stephen as a
guide I would be taken to see only rare uses of imperial. If
If a new exit were to be put on the motorway near where I live (which would be
excellent!) it will have two exit signs with 'm' on them.
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:43:45 -0700
From: jeremiahmacgre...@rocketmail.com
Subject: Re: [USMA:43522] Re: Jerry's questions regarding imperial fuel
fish
I meant specific to the UK Ken Agreed, when I fly to Europe, I take a direct from Seattle to Amsterdam or Copenhagen most of the time. Even though we have a direct BA flight.
For you to assume that I meant all of Europe shows that you're just a troll.
I could care less about Elvis
Sirs:
I am somewhat surprised to get this message. I have NOT unsubscribed from the
list, as yet.
I do note, however, that some list members rarely reply to my mail - perhaps
becuase of 'little interest to them', as I too occasionally do for mail in
which I find no relevance or newer input.
Stephen said If you see a long distance sign to a city/town ... on a UK
motorway it will very likely have a numeral followed by an 'm'.
Yeah. If it's an obsolete, non-compliant sign.
Heres the current page from the TSRGD. No sign of an m after Sheffield 32
or Leeds 59, is there. Why are
Isn't 440 yards the same thing as 400 m? So wouldn't this sign be hidden
metric?
I must have missed the picture Stephen posted showing 1/4 m. I did see a
picture with an old sign showing 6m. I also saw one that said 1/2 mile with
the word mile spelled out and there was a third one that
Normally it takes a little longer until you fall back on pedantry.
If any genuine posters require more info on the 'm' signs issue then please do
send me a message (public or private) although I think it's now been flogged to
death.
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:17:13 -0700
From:
I think Carleton should report this to the railroad forum to dispel any notion
that measurements in the railroad industry is not nice rounded English only and
metric is converted to exact sub-millimeter accuracy. The huge tolerances
allow for metric numbers to be just as round.
Jerry
It seems to me that the entire metric vs imperial battle concerning the UK
involves only road travel. There has to be more to UK life then just road
travel.
It sure would be interesting to hear how a person who spends very little time
on the road is exposed to measurements. For example, what
Jerry said If I stay away from gas stations and super markets and just drive
up and down motorways I may be convinced the UK is fully imperial
Nah. There are signs every 100 m along UK motorway giving the distance from the
start point of the motorway in tenths of Kilometres.
If you saw a
No, Brian. Please read what I said.
I consider Amsterdam to be a better transport hub than London even though I am
flying from the UK.
Look at the advantages - I can get a flight from Glasgow or Edinburgh to
Amsterdam and not have to change airports to catch my next flight.
If I go to
Yes, it has been flogged to death. I believe I have a true picture of the
situation in the UK and there is no need for it to go further. We can all
agree that the rules no longer support the use of the m for miles and those
signs that still show it are old and not in compliance with the
Brian,What Lee is describing is a minority position.We are talking about
visitors from the US and what you say is the case - ie using LHR or LGW
airport.This is off topic - apologies.
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:52:25 -0700
From: k_cooper1...@yahoo.com
Subject: [USMA:43564] Re: Jerry's questions
You probably did not pick up a key item in my text.NEW slip roads will have the
'm' sign - usually twice.
There is no measurement war at the work place - for most the subject won't crop
up - for others (eg engineers and TSO's like Lee) the fact that the UK is a
mixed system will come up in
May I suggest that we do something to pigeonhole or earmark UK metric
discussion? Some of it is relevant to the US, of course, but 90% is
not. Much of it is discussions among three or four people. I want to
read stuff about US progress. The number of postings here is getting to
the
Yes Stephen. You are correct. 10% is a minority.
The fact that my viewpoint only applies to around ~5 million of the UK's ~50
million population means that it is worthless meaningless.
Everything should go through London.
Remind me please, what is your local airport? Is it London Heathrow,
I agree with Harry that this list has degraded significantly in recent
weeks, and that the occasional useful post (related to practical issues
surrounding US conversion to SI) is being buried by other noise. I've set
message rules on my e-mail program to delete posts from certain individuals
I'll let Ken respond to your claim on 'New slip roads.
As for the work place I was only asking about the use of units not a battle
between them. Since a company can have an established system, such as metric,
then what becomes of employees who might be anti-metric? Do they quit? Are
they
Why not post something about what you have done to promote metrication and if
it had a positive effect. I would be more then willing to hear it and discuss
it.
Jerry
From: Victor Jockin vjoc...@hotmail.com
To: U.S. Metric Association usma@colostate.edu
Sent:
I shall be delighted to join the consensus and concentrate on U.S. metrication.
- Original Message -
From: Jeremiah MacGregor
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: 08 March, 2009 19:33
Subject: [USMA:43572] Fw: A modest proposal
Well then why not start a thread on US
Answer to Jerry's question below: because sticking with a measurement system
that nobody else in the world uses is a drag on the US economy.
From: Paul Trusten
Sent: 03/08/2009 6:42 PM
To: U.S. Metric Association
Subject: [USMA:43574] Re: Fw: A modest proposal
I shall be delighted to
In 1999, the National Conference on Weights and Measures (NCWM) amended its
model regulation, the Uniform Packaging and Labeling Regulation (UPLR), to
contain the following:
11.33. Inch-Pound Units, Exemptions - Consumer Commodities. - The requirements
for statements of quantity in inch-pound
The first thought that comes to mind is if this is so true then why have only a
few companies converted to metric on their own? One would think that
metrication should occur in a domino type of effect. That is one company does
it, prospers and others follow. But this has not happened this
So doesn't the fact that 48 states (a sweeping majority) have enough pull to
make this a reality?
Jerry
From: Paul Trusten trus...@grandecom.net
To: U.S. Metric Association usma@colostate.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 10:35:03 PM
Subject: [USMA:43576]
Paul,
Why would unanimous adoption of item 11.33 of the UPLR render amending the FPLA
moot?
It seems like the FPLA regulations would still be controlling for all goods
under its scope.
Ezra
- Original Message -
From: Paul Trusten trus...@grandecom.net
To: U.S. Metric Association
Paul,
Thanks for keeping this important effort alive. Can I repost this on the
Facebook group, or would you like to do so?
http://www.facebook.com/groups.php?ref=sb#/group.php?gid=2324499886
From: Paul Trusten
Sent: 03/08/2009 7:35 PM
To: U.S. Metric Association
Subject: [USMA:43576]
Jerry: we cannot tolerate any opposing WM departments on the metric-only
option. Sure, 48 states and all territories make a strong case, but since we
are dealing with the Nation's measurement standard, we must have the support of
all jurisdictions to make our case for metric iron-clad.
Ezra:
Dear All,
Apparently, engineers in the 1970s saw an opportunity, through
metrication, to rationalise some of the original design faults in tyre
design and construction. Here is a quote from: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=46
Tires and wheels that have a rim
On 2009/03/09, at 4:06 AM, John Frewen-Lord wrote:
If we could square that circle, resistance would be much more easily
overcome.
Dear John,
Sorry about this, but your line caused me to recall:
Cornbread are square, pi are round!
This came from the signature at the bottom of the Snopes
I can't cite a specific law about dual labeling milk and other dairy
products, however they are not dual labeled now. Milk comes under special
state laws for farm products.
Stan Doore
- Original Message -
From: John M. Steele jmsteele9...@sbcglobal.net
To: U.S. Metric
I believe it does; however, why bother?
Stan Doore
- Original Message -
From: Jeremiah MacGregor
To: U.S. Metric Association
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:10 PM
Subject: [USMA:43504] Re: USC units spread to the UK - and no-one notices!
Does the law prevent them from
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