On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:01 PM, K. Peachey wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Chad wrote:
> > Things should be much better since this afternoon.
> >
>
> You gave into the server kittehs demands for fresher tuna?
>
>
I blocked silly Chinese and Korean web spiders that don't know
how to b
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Chad wrote:
> Things should be much better since this afternoon.
>
You gave into the server kittehs demands for fresher tuna?
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On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Andre Klapper wrote:
> On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:28 -0400, Derric Atzrott wrote:
> > Anyone else having issues getting at Gitblit? I've not been able to get
> at it
> > for the past half hour or so.
>
> It's intermittent but happens quite often for the last days:
I wrote:
> I think users should be encouraged to use VE by making VE really
> awesome, and by promoting its awesomeness, rather than by trying to
> trick them into using it.
To clarify: I didn't mean to imply that the VE team were trying to
trick users. They are not. I just mean that if you consid
On Jul 24, 2013 12:43 AM, "Ikuya Yamada" wrote:
> It seems that the page view statistics data does not contain the
> actual data for the last few hours.
>
> http://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/pagecounts-raw/2013/2013-07/
>
> Are there any failures on the server-side?
Just looking at file sizes I ca
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
> I know that this crafty UI was introduced to encourage users to use
> the new editor. The trouble is, this assumes that users have no idea
> which editor they want to use, and thus will happily use whatever
> editor the JS can trick them into
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 15:28 -0400, Derric Atzrott wrote:
> Anyone else having issues getting at Gitblit? I've not been able to get at it
> for the past half hour or so.
It's intermittent but happens quite often for the last days:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51769
andre
--
And
Hello,
It seems that the page view statistics data does not contain the
actual data for the last few hours.
http://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/pagecounts-raw/2013/2013-07/
Are there any failures on the server-side?
Thanks,
Ikuya
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My apologies for the ham handed email. I'm supportive of the opt out feature
while ve is in beta. Going forward I agree with the notion that experienced
editors know what editor they want to use before the page completely loads. I
like the idea of a preference to select a default editor.
—
S
I personally know for a fact nobody is trying to trick the user in this case.
We are simply trying to make editing easier for new editors without confusing
them. As a membwr f the visual editor team, I'm supportive of our advanced and
seemingly more important editors opt-out during the beta.
On 23/07/13 04:36, Erik Moeller wrote:
> 1) Section editing behavior - the hybrid link display is mildly
> annoying, and doesn't work for touch interfaces;
I think it's a bit more than mildly annoying, and I think it's the
main reason users are so desperate to disable VE completely instead of
simp
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Alex Monk wrote:
> I might have missed something, but is there any schedule for when
> VisualEditor will be considered 'out of beta'?
Not so soon that we couldn't afford to let this thread die down for a bit.
___
Wikit
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:55 PM, James Forrester
wrote:
> I hope that as few users as possible will
> choose this way to degrade their experience and deprive the community of
> their input. Instead of endlessly arguing the point about this, I'd rather
> my team and I spending our time working to m
Thank you for changing your mind.
I might have missed something, but is there any schedule for when
VisualEditor will be considered 'out of beta'? Or is it simply a case of
the VE team deciding that it's stable enough?
Alex Monk
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:55 AM, James Forrester
wrote:
> Because
On 22 July 2013 18:35, James Forrester wrote:
> On 22 July 2013 11:45, Tyler Romeo wrote:
>
>> Putting all of the issues aside, I'd like to know what the reason is for
>> hiding the preference. Let's assume for a second that VE does not hinder
>> users at all, that it's JS footprint is nonexiste
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab
IdeaLab is an incubator for people to share ideas to improve Wikimedia
projects and collaboratively develop them into plans and grant
proposals.
I'm cross-posting to the developer and researcher lists because I
could imagine some of you following thi
Ori Livneh wrote:
>Can we deprecate usage of '!ask' on IRC?
>
>> ori-l: !ask
>> wm-bot: Hi, how can we help you? Just ask your question.
>
>It's annoying when people ask to ask, but the people who do so do it out
>of insecurity or lack of experience, and so they're the last people we
>should be sic
On 07/23/2013 12:05 PM, Łukasz Garczewski wrote:
> I'd appreciate if you could let me know when the code is available.
I branched this. Still have things to work on:
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/75142/
--
http://hexmode.com/
Love alone reveals the true shape of the universe.
-- "Ev
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Roan Kattouw wrote:
> We disagree on that one then. VisualEditor is meant to hide wikitext
> entirely. The primary focus is on people that don't know wikitext. I
> agree that we should keep nowiki-fication to a minimum and get rid of
> the other bugs that cause th
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:55 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Subramanya Sastry
> wrote:
> > http://parsoid.wmflabs.org:8001/stats
> >
> > This is the url for our round trip testing on 160K pages (20K each from 8
> > wikipedias).
>
> Very minor point .. there are ~40
On 07/23/2013 06:55 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
http://parsoid.wmflabs.org:8001/stats
This is the url for our round trip testing on 160K pages (20K each from 8
wikipedias).
Very minor point .. there are ~400 missing pages on the list; i
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
> http://parsoid.wmflabs.org:8001/stats
>
> This is the url for our round trip testing on 160K pages (20K each from 8
> wikipedias).
Very minor point .. there are ~400 missing pages on the list; is that
intentional ? ;-)
One is 'Mos:time'
On 07/23/2013 06:02 PM, Subramanya Sastry wrote:
On 07/23/2013 05:28 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
VE and Parsoid devs have put in a lot and lot of effort to recognize
broken
wikitext source, fix it or isolate it,
My point was that you dont appear to be doing analysis of how of all
Wikipedia con
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:24 PM, C. Scott Ananian wrote:
>
>> Was a regression testsuite built using the issues encountered during
>> the last parser rewrite?
>>
>
> Yes, mediawiki/core/tests/parser/parserTests.txt (which predates parsoid)
> has been continuously updated throughout the development
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:13 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
> > http://parsoid.wmflabs.org:8001/stats
> >
> > This is the url for our round trip testing on 160K pages (20K each from 8
> > wikipedias).
>
> Fantastic! How frequently are those tests re-run? Could you add a
> last-run-date on that page
On 07/23/2013 06:13 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
On 07/23/2013 05:28 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
Hi John and Risker,
First off, I do want to once again clarify that my intention
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
> On 07/23/2013 05:28 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Subramanya Sastry
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi John and Risker,
>>>
>>> First off, I do want to once again clarify that my intention in the
>>> previous
>>> po
On 07/23/2013 05:28 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
Hi John and Risker,
First off, I do want to once again clarify that my intention in the previous
post was not to claim that VE/Parsoid is perfect. It was more that we've
fixed sufficient b
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:28 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Subramanya Sastry
> wrote:
> > Hi John and Risker,
> >
> > First off, I do want to once again clarify that my intention in the
> previous
> > post was not to claim that VE/Parsoid is perfect. It was more
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
> Hi John and Risker,
>
> First off, I do want to once again clarify that my intention in the previous
> post was not to claim that VE/Parsoid is perfect. It was more that we've
> fixed sufficient bugs at this point that the most significa
[14:54] <^demon> !ask del
[14:54] Successfully removed ask
-Chad
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Tyler Romeo wrote:
> Yeah I agree. Whenever I see it used I cringe a little bit thinking about
> how the other person is reading it.
>
> --Tyler Romeo
> On Jul 23, 2013 5:51 PM, "Ori Livneh" wrot
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:14 PM, John Vandenberg wrote:
> There is an enhancement for that.
>
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51897
>
> IMO the current behaviour isnt correct. There are so few instances
> that nowiki is desirable, that the current VE should refuse to accept
> wik
Yeah I agree. Whenever I see it used I cringe a little bit thinking about
how the other person is reading it.
--Tyler Romeo
On Jul 23, 2013 5:51 PM, "Ori Livneh" wrote:
> Can we deprecate usage of '!ask' on IRC?
>
> > ori-l: !ask
> > wm-bot: Hi, how can we help you? Just ask your question.
>
> I
Can we deprecate usage of '!ask' on IRC?
> ori-l: !ask
> wm-bot: Hi, how can we help you? Just ask your question.
It's annoying when people ask to ask, but the people who do so do it out of
insecurity or lack of experience, and so they're the last people we should
be siccing our bots on.
I've us
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Roan Kattouw wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Daniel Barrett
> wrote:
> > Risker asks:
>
> Of course those tags weren't added by the editors, VE doesn't
> let you do that directly. What I think Robert was talking about
> (thanks for that analysis, BTW!)
@praveenp do you know if bug 48032 is fixable with texvc?
@Derk-Jan could you give some background on your "MathJax is a nightmare"
comment? Have their been specific reports or complaints? Or is this
something specific out of development (like the float issue)? It seems
MathJax is slower on Wikipe
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Ori Livneh wrote:
> I see now that setting $wgDevelopmentWarnings = true will manifest usage of
> deprecated methods in PHP's error log, ...
>
> I'll do my bit by enable this setting on MediaWiki-Vagrant :)
>
I did my bit by mentioning it in
https://www.mediaw
I am a Parsoid developer. I was participant #6 in the thread. As noted,
reponses #14 and #16 were also from VE developers, and our contributions
have continued. From my perspective the devs involved have done a pretty
good job of picking out technical content from the discussion and acting on
it
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Steve Summit wrote:
> VE will (correctly, from its point of view) translate that to
> "[[pagename]]" in the page source.
>
> This is a likely enough mistake, and the number of times you
> really want explicit double square brackets is small enough, that
> it's wort
Le 23/07/13 21:12, Bartosz Dziewoński a écrit :
> On a side note, I find it interesting how none of the actual VE and
> Parsoid developers replied here, apart from Roan, Chris and Subbu on
> off-topic technical issues (thanks for that).
I am myself not replying because I don't want to be involved.
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Raylton P. Sousa
wrote:
> If you both will be traveling, who will do the work of the org adm.
> Eg. on IRC
Me. I am available on IRC until Monday. I would assume you are all old
enough to come to me with pressing questions until then :) And as I
said I will try to
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Chris McMahon wrote:
> Just confirming that nothing is required for OPW and that this is only for
> GSoC
Correct. This formal evaluation is for GSoC.
Cheers
Lydia
--
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Community Communications for Technical Projec
Whoops, didn't realize this thread had been forked off while I was out
to lunch, and so I responded to the other thread. Sorry about that :(
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Steve Summit wrote:
> This is a likely enough mistake, and the number of times you
> really want explicit double square bra
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Daniel Barrett wrote:
> Risker asks:
>>Why do you think those tags were added by the editors?
>
> I can't speak for the original poster, but the last time I used VE,
> it added unwanted tags by itself.
> You can see an example in my most recent bug report:
> htt
Risker wrote:
> On 23 July 2013 15:32, Robert Rohde wrote:
>> * Corrupted page content that appears to be caused by the unfamiliar
>> UI (e.g. [[Foo]])
>
> Why do you think those tags were added by the editors?
I assume that since it's VE's job to be wysiwyg, and to insulate
the user from the lo
Please change the subject and use a different thread if you intend to
discuss the usefulness or accuracy of VE, because as I just said, that's
not the subject of this thread.
*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro
Risker asks:
>Why do you think those tags were added by the editors?
I can't speak for the original poster, but the last time I used VE,
it added unwanted tags by itself.
You can see an example in my most recent bug report:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51829
DanB
_
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Derric Atzrott <
datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
>
> >Since the devs implemented resource loader it has become
> >harder and harder to block the poorly developed bloat that has crept into
> >mediawiki. I used to be able to isolate the JavaScript file causing
It's been flakey the past few days. I've been trying to get to the
bottom of it.
-Chad
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Derric Atzrott <
datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
> Afternoon,
>
>
>
> Anyone else having issues getting at Gitblit? I've not been able to get
> at it
> for the past half
Why do you think those tags were added by the editors?
Risker
On 23 July 2013 15:32, Robert Rohde wrote:
> In the interest of gathering slightly larger statistics, I manually
> reviewed 200 VE entries on recent changes.
>
> I am classifying these as
>
> * "Good" edit
> * Test edits / newbie e
In the interest of gathering slightly larger statistics, I manually
reviewed 200 VE entries on recent changes.
I am classifying these as
* "Good" edit
* Test edits / newbie errors likely to happen in either editor (not VE's fault)
* Obvious vandal edit (not VE's fault)
* Damaged source that rende
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ori Livneh wrote:
> Daniel was diligent about adding wfDeprecated calls to the deprecated
> methods that the older hooks calls. I wonder if we could add a Jenkins
> check that flags usage of deprecated features. A sophisticated version
> would trace the execution
Just confirming that nothing is required for OPW and that this is only for
GSoC
-Chris
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Quim Gil wrote:
> GSoC mentors: read this email through and submit your mid-term evaluation
> between 29 July - 2 August in Google Melange. One per project is enough. If
> the
Afternoon,
Anyone else having issues getting at Gitblit? I've not been able to get at it
for the past half hour or so.
Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
Computer Specialist
Alizee Pathology
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On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> Do you have any recommendations for how we should handle deprecations?
> Is this done on a case-by-case basis?
>
Most of the deprecated hooks have ContentHandler-aware replacements with
compatible signatures. The mapping is as follows
On a side note, I find it interesting how none of the actual VE and Parsoid
developers replied here, apart from Roan, Chris and Subbu on off-topic
technical issues (thanks for that).
--
Matma Rex
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You may be interested in this.
Cristian
-- Forwarded message --
From: Karthik Nadar
Date: 2013/7/23
Subject: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Job Offer: Technical Position for WLM 2013
To: Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph Competition
Dear WLMers,
We at the Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in
On 23 jul. 2013, at 18:06, Subramanya Sastry wrote:
>> A leading line feed in a parameter - what the?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Sam_%26_Cat_episodes&curid=39469556&diff=565437324&oldid=565416618
>
> This is something I'll have to investigate.
This is probably ac
?
2013/7/23 Raylton P. Sousa
> If you both will be traveling, who will do the work of the org adm.
> Eg. on IRC
>
>
> 2013/7/23 Lydia Pintscher
>
>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Quim Gil wrote:
>> > PS: fwiw I'm starting a week of holidays tomorrow and then I will be
>> flying
>> > to Hon
If you both will be traveling, who will do the work of the org adm.
Eg. on IRC
2013/7/23 Lydia Pintscher
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Quim Gil wrote:
> > PS: fwiw I'm starting a week of holidays tomorrow and then I will be
> flying
> > to Hong Kong for Wikimania on Aug 1-2. If you need a
Hello,
Here is what I would like to do : generating reports which give, for a
> given language, a list of words which are used on the web with a number
> evaluating its occurencies, but which are not in a given wiktionary.
>
> How would you recommand to implemente that within the wikimedia
> infra
Hi John and Risker,
First off, I do want to once again clarify that my intention in the
previous post was not to claim that VE/Parsoid is perfect. It was more
that we've fixed sufficient bugs at this point that the most significant
"bugs" (bugs, not missing features) that need fixing (and are
I just want to be absolutely clear, for the purposes of solving this
problem and staying on topic, we are *not* discussing:
* Whether VE is a good product or not (it clearly is)
* Whether VE should be deployed or not (it already is)
* Whether VE should have an option to be disabled (it already has
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Mark A. Hershberger wrote:
> I've been working on a client's website that uses a lot of citations and
> runs 1.19. After a bit of profiling over the last few days, the use of
> some of Wikipedia's templates stood out. I decided to try and backport
> Scribunto to
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Quim Gil wrote:
> PS: fwiw I'm starting a week of holidays tomorrow and then I will be flying
> to Hong Kong for Wikimania on Aug 1-2. If you need and org admin Lydia
> Pintscher will be able to help you.
As Quim said I am available to answer any question you migh
On 23.07.2013, 19:30 C. wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Derk-Jan Hartman <
> d.j.hartman+wmf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So what I would actually propose for the short term (next few years) in
>> case we really want to go the direction of MathML is the following:
>> 1: img tag + --data-math
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:36 AM, Bináris wrote:
> Once you have a "list of words which are used on the web" (this must be got
> from an outer source, nothing to do it within Wiktionary), the easiest way
> is to run a bot, e.g. Pywikipedia.
>
Rather than writing a bot, you might consider generati
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:20 AM, Derk-Jan Hartman <
d.j.hartman+wmf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So what I would actually propose for the short term (next few years) in
> case we really want to go the direction of MathML is the following:
> 1: img tag + --data-math=formulaID in HTML
> 2: script to detec
>> However, from a user's standpoint, it still doesn't make a ton of
>> sense to do it that way. If I just want to add a category, I shouldn't
>> have to invoke an editing surface at all. Similarly, if I want to turn
>> a page into a redirect, I shouldn't have to edit the page at all. As
>> most of
>Since the devs implemented resource loader it has become
>harder and harder to block the poorly developed bloat that has crept into
>mediawiki. I used to be able to isolate the JavaScript file causing the
>issues (I remember BITS geolocation being a major hog) and just block it.
>Now thats not po
GSoC mentors: read this email through and submit your mid-term
evaluation between 29 July - 2 August in Google Melange. One per project
is enough. If the primary mentor can't make it then the secondary mentor
needs to step in.
VERY IMPORTANT
Missing this deadline means the cancellation of your
2013/7/23 MZMcBride
> What we need is for you and Erik to recognize that you're wrong and to
> make this right. Is there anyone besides you and Erik who agree with the
> position you're taking here?
>
They are not alone. I also agree with their position, and I sincerely hope
we are not alone.
E
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:35 AM, Erik Moeller wrote:
> On the first point, right now, we're approaching categories and
> similar page metadata from the point of view of the editing surface as
> an entrypoint. This makes sense if you simply try to map all aspects
> of markup (which is inherently p
http://storage.googleapis.com/books/ngrams/books/datasetsv2.html
2013/7/23 Bináris
> Once you have a "list of words which are used on the web" (this must be got
> from an outer source, nothing to do it within Wiktionary), the easiest way
> is to run a bot, e.g. Pywikipedia.
>
> 2013/7/23 Mathie
Once you have a "list of words which are used on the web" (this must be got
from an outer source, nothing to do it within Wiktionary), the easiest way
is to run a bot, e.g. Pywikipedia.
2013/7/23 Mathieu Stumpf
> Hello,
>
> Here is what I would like to do : generating reports which give, for a
>
Hello,
Here is what I would like to do : generating reports which give, for a
given language, a list of words which are used on the web with a number
evaluating its occurencies, but which are not in a given wiktionary.
How would you recommand to implemente that within the wikimedia
infrastru
> I'm wondering if the lack of reactions so far is positive or negative.
It's negative, it shows that few people have the confidence to think they
have something worthwhile to contribute on this niche area. :(
Output:
I'd love to support MathML as primary direction, but I still see huge
problems
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Subramanya Sastry
wrote:
> On 07/22/2013 10:44 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
>>
>> Round-trip bugs, and bugs which cause a given wikitext input to give
>> different HTML in Parsoid compared to MW, should have been detected
>> during automated testing, prior to beta deplo
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Steve Summit wrote:
> Here's a thought experiment: if visual editing had existed (with
> reasonable functionality) since day 1, would there ever have been
> a way to disable it, let alone a hue and cry over a lack of a way
> to disable it?
>
>
This isn't a good an
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:19 AM, Risker wrote:
> You pretty much had one chance at A/B testing, and it's done now. You
> can't repeat the tests as long as VE is the default editor.
>
That's not correct at all. It's still entirely possible to deliver
different editing environments to randomized
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:05 AM, Tim Starling wrote:
> I tried editing [[Argentina]] on my laptop just now, it took 45
> seconds of CPU time and 51 seconds of wall clock time before the
> percentage CPU usage began to drop. It's pretty slow.
Yes, that's why I said "performance on long pages can
On 23 July 2013 02:32, Subramanya Sastry wrote:
> On 07/22/2013 10:44 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
>
>> Round-trip bugs, and bugs which cause a given wikitext input to give
>> different HTML in Parsoid compared to MW, should have been detected
>> during automated testing, prior to beta deployment. I d
If you want to export the data from one instance of MW and import it
to another instance of MW then XML Dumps will do very well.
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Importing_XML_dumps
-
Yury Katkov, WikiVote
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Ryan Rick Acta wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Do you know what
On Tuesday, July 23, 2013, Subramanya Sastry wrote:
>
> 500+ edits are being done per hour using Visual Editor
500+ people are making edits with the default editor, I'm pretty sure
(without doing stats on it) that a lot of them wouldn't be experienced
enough to kill it off
--
-- Sent from Gma
On 23/07/13 15:23, Erik Moeller wrote:
> Editing this page in Firefox on a 6-year-old system only slightly
> faster than the tester's specs today takes about 5 seconds to
> initialize. In Chrome it takes about 3 seconds, in the ballpark of
> reloading the page into the source editor. Note that Gabr
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