Todd, I am really baffled by this, I have to admit. Are you implying that an SOA doesn't have to be realized in software?
I have been thinking of SOA as related to software, isn't it? I realize there are a lot of nontechnical issues, and I completely agree that an SOA needs to be defined independently of technology considerations, but at the end of the day isn't the point of the exercise to improve the usefulness and suitability of computers for business applications? Are you and JP arguing that it's enough to do the design? This is what I don't get. Thanks, Eric --- Todd Biske <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > +1. If I could give it +2, I would. Every time I > sit down and > think about what it takes to make SOA successful, I > don't think > technology ever comes up on my list. > > -tb > > On Mar 11, 2006, at 3:42 PM, JP Morgenthal wrote: > > > Eric, > > > > Technology is not required to implement anything. > I can take any of > > the bank services I represented in my example in > my post and > > implement them > > with humans. Will I still need infrastructure, > yes, probably a > > building in > > which to work, a phone, a pen, pencil, maybe I'll > even throw in a > > pad for > > good faith. The one thing I don't need is > technology (unless you > > want to > > consider the pencil technology, in which case I > won't argue). > > > > The problem with saying SOA Infrastructure is > that it immediately > > associates in non-technical people's minds that > this thing is > > beyond them, > > not in their field of vision, "that thing that IT > does that we all > > hate > > because they're too slow doing it in the first > place." > > > > I just worked with a company where we used SOA to > define the entire > > enterprise. The CFO and the sales team and the > marketing team and > > the loan > > team didn't see SOA as technology. They saw it as > the way they > > were being > > organized. They saw it as the way they define > what they do to other > > departments, they say it as requirement to develop > a contract that > > explains > > to other groups how to use their services. > > > > SOA can be so much more than we're giving it > credit for today. It's > > only recently that I've seen the power of using in > organizational > > management. However, there are many thought > leaders in this group > > and if > > you all continue to associated SOA with technology > in the minds of > > non-technologists, the whole value proposition of > SOA as a way to > > bridge IT > > and business disappears. > > > > Given your investment in the ESB market, I'm > sorry to say, these > > people could care less about an ESB, a registry or > an SOA governance > > facility. > > > > But, for the record, your reply even states an > "SOA Application", > > hence, I say that you're talking about SODA > infrastructure and not SOA > > infrastructure. > > > > JP > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > [email protected] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf > > Of Eric > > Newcomer > > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:13 AM > > To: > [email protected] > > Subject: RE: [service-orientated-architecture] Re: > SOA Infrastructure > > > > Hi JP - > > > > I am not sure what you think SOA Infrastructure > means, > > but to me it means the technology needed to > implement > > an SOA based application - i.e. an application > > designed using an SOA. > > > > The coin in this case has two sides - yes, SOA > based > > design is independent of technology. However, > > technology is needed to implement the design. > > > > I fail to see a problem in calling that technology > > "SOA Infrastructure." > > > > Best, > > > > Eric > > > > > > --- JP Morgenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > >> Sorry, but I have to weigh in on the title of > this > >> thread. Here's a blog > >> entry I just posted at: > >> > > > http://www.avorcor.com/morgenthal/index.php?entry=entry060311-084440 > >> > >> SOA and SODA > >> Saturday, March 11, 2006, 08:43 AM > >> When the term SODA first started being bandied > about > >> I was less than > >> enthusiastic about the terminology. SODA stands > for > >> Service-Oriented Design > >> of Applications. However, there's been a lot of > >> recent discussion of a topic > >> termed "SOA Infrastructure", which has forced me > to > >> re-examine the SODA term > >> and start to use it to help explain and > >> differentiate between general SOA > >> and a technological SOA. > >> > >> First of all, I do not believe there is anything > >> called "SOA > >> Infrastructure." As I explain SOA to my clients, > SOA > >> is a way of designing a > >> system. A system is an abstract entity, like a > >> lighting system, electrical > >> system, and heating and cooling system. In this > case > >> the system we're > >> designing is a business system. There's no > >> infrastructure involved, just > >> artifacts, components and the relationships > between > >> these two. > >> > >> An SOA can be used to design an Enterprise, a > >> software system, even a > >> telephone system. There's no limitation or > inherent > >> attribute that says that > >> a service has to be described as a software > >> component. To do so only limits > >> the value of this architectural pattern and sets > it > >> up to be easily > >> dismissed by non-technological personnel. > >> > >> When you get into discussions of SOA > infrastructure, > >> in my mind, you're in > >> the SODA world. You're specifically talking about > an > >> implementation approach > >> to a system designed using SOA. Things like > >> registries and enterprise > >> service buses are components of a software-only > >> system. They have nothing to > >> do with a banking system I designed using SOA > that > >> identifies each of the > >> specific types of services the bank offers as a > >> service. > >> > >> For example, I can design a bank system with a > >> checking service, loan > >> service, loan decisioning service, investment > >> service, corporate banking > >> service, etc. In each case, these services > represent > >> more than some Web > >> service interface to the e-commerce offerings > within > >> each of these areas of > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/service-orientated-architecture/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
