First of all, it never costs too much to do it right. It only costs too much to do it over. And don't get me wrong, I make mistakes like anyone else ;-)
That being said, lets think this thing thru... FP documents by an engineer in one state, signed and sealed by an engineer in another state (presuming the engineer-of-record process has been followed accordingly), then sprinkler contractor asked to bid on a set of documents that, at best, provide an area/density that may or may not be adequate. Then, sprinkler contractor bids project, gets project, submits to original engineer-of-record or another engineer, again following proper state guidelines for engineering review and oversight, submits for permit (IF the engineer will approve the drawings in the first place) WITHOUT being able to give reviewing authority the proper information to do an adequate analysis and review of the fire protection system, gets rejected, can't explain to the AHJ why it's not right, starts process all over again, has to tell client why he's rejected, ask him for more money to do it right, and on and on and ... It is not right, nor good, nor defendable to just do it. First and foremeost it doesn't benefit my client (the purchaser), me (the installing contractor), the original engineer, the successor engineer, nor my relationships, reputation, and integrity with the reviewing authorities. The only right thing to do is to do the right thing. (Perform my due diglience and protect both my client's interest as well as my own.) Until and unless I can legally and ethically provide the PROPER life and property safety system for this or any other facility I can NOT, in good conscience, just have it bid as it is without at least making every reasonable attempt to verify the accuracy of the direction given. Whether I am the installing contractor only or part of the intial concept, design, and development team, I personally have no other option but to do it as accurately as possible. That is the service my client is paying for and that is what I am obligated to provide. Ray Vance - SET Chief Sales Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. www.waynefire.com (407) 877-5563 office (321) 436-2184 cell -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: 2008-10-16 13:50 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pesticides Storage Why is it lacking? If they gave you the area/density sounds like you have all you need. While the rest you indicate would be nice and the AHJ will probably require at some point isn't this the engineering firms problem? I'd send my plans in with the density and attach the engineers "design documents". I'd refer any questions regarding the density or use to the engineer. Even if the engineering firm came up with the wrong area/density that isn't your problem is it? I agree you might want to cross reference to help the owner with a big problem later. If you are just bidding qualify you don't know, don't have the information and are relying on the engineer. I'm assuming you are the sprinkler contractor only. As a contractor give me the area/density and that's all I need? 0.576263/3289.8975 fine, I can design around that. It doesn't make a difference to me where it came from. If they tell you the commodity is Class 0 stored 3' high you still design to the given density. Don't be the defacto engineer if you don't have too. We contractors hold the hand of engineers to often. Seems to me the appropriate (or perhaps inappropriate but irrelevant) protection scheme has already been decided. Dude, I'd be in heaven if any specifying engineer around here could come up with an area/density. Of course the one exception is forumite Scott Futrell but he doesn't do much specifying that I am aware of. I assume it costs too much to do it right. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Vance Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pesticides Storage Thanks Todd. I have already gone down that path and the client is in the process of getting the MSDS sheets for us. We have been given a set of "design documents" from an engineering firm indicating an area/density requirement, but no information was given as to the storage height, storage arrangement, commodity classification, building height, clearances, container types or sizes, etc. so an informed decision can be made relating to the appropriate protection scheme. Fortunately, the containment requirements of NFPA 434 have been addressed, but the fire protection portion is definitely lacking in sufficient detail to determine an adequate direction. Ray Vance - SET Chief Sales Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. www.waynefire.com (407) 877-5563 office (321) 436-2184 cell -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams - FPDC Sent: 2008-10-16 11:39 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pesticides Storage Ray, Get MSDS's on the stuff and see exactly what you are dealing with. At 11:29 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote: >Esteemed Collegues: > >Can anyone give guidance on a Pesticides Storage warehouse and the >approriate fire protection requirements? >NFPA-434 doesn't give prescriptove requiremetns or a definitive path to >follow. It only indicates a risk analysis be done by a "competent >individual" (I read PE or FPE) to determine the extent and type of fire >protection to be provide. > >Without regard to storage arrangement and heights, what TYPE of >commodity would be appropriate to consider, since the amount stored is >over 10,000 lbs and is extermely varied in the types and configurations >of products to be stored? >I am leaning towards NFPA-30 "Flammable and Combustible Liquids" to >begin my analysis, but would like the opinions of anyone who has had >experience with this process. > >Thanks in advance, > >Ray Vance -SET >Chief Sales Designer >Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. >www.waynefire.com<blocked::blocked::http://www.waynefire.com/> >(407) 877-5563 office >(321) 436-2184 cell > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
