I walked away from group of these unfortunately I was not able to convince the owner and GC why I was so expensive on my design and that he need to put a ceiling in his 3.5/12 pitch ware house. Based on the 4" back flow outside I assume somebody put a Group II in and mad everybody happy until the fire starts. This building also has a good size room where they mix paint and to sell auto body shops. Andy
Master Craft Plumbing and Fire Protection -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 10:09 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: solid shelves in auto parts stores The building code process is pretty clear. If all parties in the process do their jobs then the end result is the right one. Here it looks like 1) an owner did not produce a certificate, 2) an engineer may not be competent, 3) a sprinkler contractor is trying to be helpful, and 4) an AHJ is not able to make all the parties stay inside their boundaries and do their jobs. As long as I've been on this forum (16 years) it's been the same. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike Hill Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: solid shelves in auto parts stores Just got the email about the racks, that sure does change things. The EOR should, at the very least, be able to provide the design criteria. It is well within his rights to ask for supporting documentation and then to explain why he feels the documentation does not support this specific scenario. I can understand his getting ticked off if he feels someone is trying to sneak something by. Obviously, I do not know the sprinkler contractor or the AHJ. This may be that the designer does not know the codes as well as he thought he did (I know that happens to me). I know of a few plan reviewers in my area that feel there are some sprinkler designers (that may not know as much as they told their employers that they know) who send their drawings in to be reviewed/CORRECTED. I know this ticks off the plan reviewers, as it is not their job to design the systems. I do not know everything, but I am also not afraid or embarrassed to call the AHJ and ask a question or two before I send in a submittal. One advantage of this forum, at least for me, is that it gets me thinking about problems in a different way. I like to see the differing points of views that some of the questions bring up. Mike Hill -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:31 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: solid shelves in auto parts stores OK, well in his defense. He doesn't have anything other than a sprinkler drawing showing a max 12' storage height. The EOR has not provided the basis of his design criteria, ie , the OIC. In addition, he can drive 4 miles and walk in another identical store - same chain and see how they are storing. To make things worse, the Sprinkler guy sent the AHJ 3 documents to prove the OH2 - 1) A Coffee Break Training sheet - one page only that discuss flue spaces, of which there are one in this facility 2) A page from NFPA #13 Chapter 16 - Rack Storage - and has two passages marked - one is about column protection not being needed if in racks are provided ( there are no in rack sprinklers, and the column protection is not the issue and the other is about foam protection - again not provided) 3) the table from chapter 13 with OH2 circled for 10-12' storage in palletized, bin box and shelf configuration - again, by definition this is not shelf storage. Therefore, the AHJ feels like somebody is blowing smoke and that pretty much ticks him off. Greg On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Cahill, Christopher <[email protected]>wrote: > AHJ meaning some gov't official. > > 'It falls to the AHJ to enforce the 12' storage height.' True > > 'Can an AHJ reject a plan that meets stated maximum storage height > criteria because he thinks someone might exceed that?' Absolutely not, > just as the police can't give you a ticket because you drive a Mustang > that is capable of (far) exceeding the speed limit. > > 'he can ask that they remove the top shelf', absolutely not, the shelf > is not an apparent violation. > > 'Many large box stores have lines painted on the walls to indicate > maximum storage height.' True, but that's a communication tool between > owner and employees, an AHJ cannot require or enforce the presence of > the line. > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & > McDonnell > 8201 Norman Center Drive > Bloomington, MN 55437 > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > [email protected] > www.burnsmcd.com > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > *Registered in: MN > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike Hill > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 8:02 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: solid shelves in auto parts stores > > My first thought on seeing this was mercantile space (OH2) with > miscellaneous storage of higher commodities. Depending on height and > storage method this could also be OH2. Of course a lot more research > needs to be done on materials and method of storage to determine if > the miscellaneous storage section could be applied. > > IMO if it is designed for 12' storage and 12' maximum storage height > is clearly called for on the drawings it is the owner/tenant > responsibility to maintain 12' storage height. It falls to the AHJ to > enforce the 12' storage height. Many large box stores have lines > painted on the walls to indicate maximum storage height. Can an AHJ > reject a plan that meets stated maximum storage height criteria > because he thinks someone might exceed that? He can make it clear that > 12' is the maximum storage height, he can ask that they remove the top > shelf and he can let the owner/tenant know the penalty for exceeding > the maximum height. The penalty, I guess, could include the closing of > the store until the violation is corrected. > > Mike Hill > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 3:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: solid shelves in auto parts stores > > Hello, > > 1) There is a PE involved > 2) This is not my job, but I am trying to be a friend to the AHJ' > 3) I can't readily put my hands on this due to other issues > > > A local AHJ has called me to inquire about the requirement for > protecting a major chain Auto Parts Store. The PE has stated OH2 throughout the store. > AHJ is asking questions because there are 12' tall racks with a solid > top making him think they will store over 12'. > > Questions, > > Are solid shelves allowed in racks aver 30" deep in this scenario > without protection in the racks? > > Is OH@ appropriate for these "typical" Auto Parts Stores with the > storage as it is? > > Thanks for your help if you have time, if not please ignore and have a > great day! > > > > > -- > Greg McGahan > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > fax 850-937-1852 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hment > s/20120816/ec9499ea/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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