Ahaa! Now I know why you have been scratching your head for a couple weeks on this one. Time for me to grab some popcorn and a cold drink and just watch the show ;)
with best regards, Brad -----Original Message----- From: Todd - Work [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 11:31 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: concealed space definition - part deux Each 40 ft x 64 ft room in this area has six 9 ft x 20 ft tables, spaced 1 ft apart in one direction and 3 ft apart in the other. Agricultural occupancy so OH2 design. Tables are not skirted. In addition to wood construction, there will be plastic sheeting and plastic tubing under the table. (I am using the term "table" because that is what they call them). It will be a wet environment by nature of the occupancy. One interesting semantic note is that 11.2.3.1.8 (3), which is the 3000 sqft requirement, references 8.14.6, which is the platform requirement also references combustible concealed spaces. But 8.14.6 only references combustible spaces. Nothing about them being concealed Looking at this from a practical perspective (think like fire), if a fire did start under a table, it could have significant time to develop before being detected. There may not be enough heat generated to activate a sprinkler until after it is well developed. Perhaps not until flames actually shoot up around the edge of the table. If flames shoot up around more than one side of the table (possible in a 9x20 table), then a lot of sprinklers over a fairly large area could open. More than would be included in a 1500 sqft area? Potentially. This is where my thought for the 3000 sqft area comes from. (FWIW, EH2 occupancy description also references shielded fires). As for liability, the nature of our society is that we need to consider this as well as the technical aspect of our job. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT www.fpdc.com 860-535-2080 (ofc) > On Jan 8, 2014, at 11:23 AM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> wrote: > > The distinction is probably not based on height. > By strict definition from an NFPA standard (other than 13) whichever you > call it and whether the sides are closed off or not it is not a concealed > space, so I vote* no on the 3000 S.F. > I think a 9" height is closer to a platform than a table so you have a > platform and if you do not put at least a screen 'skirt' around it to > prevent debris from accumulating underneath you will have to sprinkler under > it. > > > Brad > > *not a P.E. or A.H.J. so i vote :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd - Work [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 8:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: concealed space definition - part deux > > At what height does it cease to be a platform and become a table? > > If sprinklers are omitted from underneath the platform/table, would the > ceiling system need to be calculated to 3000 sqft? > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > www.fpdc.com > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > >>> On Jan 8, 2014, at 9:30 AM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> NFPA 73-2006 3.3.6 (partial): >> >> Concealed: >> Rendered inaccessible by the structure or finish of the building. >> >> brad >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Denhardt [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 4:56 PM >> To: <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: concealed space definition >> >> I fully agree based on the 2013 edition. >> >> Thanks, >> John August Denhardt P.E. >> >>> On Jan 7, 2014, at 4:26 PM, "G. Tim Stone" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Todd, >>> >>> I would consider this a Platform and apply 8.15.6, 2010 ed. >>> >>> Regards, >>> G. Tim Stone >>> >>> G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC >>> NICET Level III Engineering Technician >>> Fire Protection Sprinkler Design >>> and Consulting Services >>> >>> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452 >>> CELL: (802) 373-0638 TEL: (802) 434-2968 Fax: (802) 434-4343 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>> Steven >>>> Scandaliato >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 4:20 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: RE: concealed space definition >>>> >>>> Today...it is whatever you and the AHJ agree on. Hopefully (fingers >>>> crossed) we will have a clear definition in the next edition as we are >>>> working at adding the "gaps and clouds" section and with this will come >>> new >>>> definitions including concealed spaces and the 4ft rule. Hold your >>> breath! >>>> Haha. >>>> >>>> Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS >>>> 520.971.2322 Cell >>>> Skype: steven.scandaliato >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Todd >>> - >>>> Work >>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 3:12 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: concealed space definition >>>> >>>> Is there an official definition of a concealed space? Is a 10 ft x 20 ft >>>> platform that is 9" off the ground but not enclosed on the sides >>> considered >>>> a concealed space? >>>> >>>> Todd G Williams, PE >>>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>>> Stonington, CT >>>> www.fpdc.com >>>> 860-535-2080 (ofc) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum- >>>> firesprinkler.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum- >>>> firesprinkler.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
