"Noting that an area doesn’t have fire sprinkler protection when it should isn’t an engineering analysis."
Guess I had framed that in my head as an IBC Engineering call. I do not know anything about that IBC thingy.. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, C.E.T. Ferguson Fire Design, LLC D: (602) 337-0721<(602)%20337-0721> C: (307) 236-8249<(307)%20236-8249> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2024 11:31 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. ________________________________ I’ve stayed out of this conversation because I’m no longer in contracting and not in close enough touch with best practices on this subject. But I’ve done a lot of expert witness work and when you edge into the concept of “standard of care”, it’s no longer a contractor’s license law issue exclusively. With so many municipalities adopting electronic reporting and archival services, it’s easier than ever to inform both owner and AHJ of conditions and concerns, and also to step in poo if you go beyond the line of whatever constitutes “best practices” or “standard of care”. Others have already clearly informed that NFPA 25 does not intend for the inspector to investigate so-called design deficiencies, but the consequences of not documenting such observations may well vary from state to state. Even if we agree that you don’t “fail” a property because of design or installation deficiencies, that doesn’t mean that it’s not a good practice to inform the owner that they have such issues and as Matthew implies, it’s pretty complicated either way, so for me I would err on the side of caution and protect myself from allegations of negligence. Noting that an area doesn’t have fire sprinkler protection when it should isn’t an engineering analysis. Running calc’s on a system that you think is undersized is. Observing that sprinklers are spaced at 225 sq. ft. in a lab space that has fume hoods isn’t a design consultation, it’s simply an informed opinion. These can be conveyed to the owner in a separate letter or memorialized as field notes. The significant aspect that’s not been discussed here is that the owner may be responsible for these deficiencies because they made building improvements without a permit, or the use of spaces has evolved as was described in the appellate court opinion that Dominick shared where spaces under stairs were enclosed and then used for storage. The inspecting contractor isn’t responsible for the actions of the owner but that definitely doesn’t mean that they have to subject themselves to potential ownership of the conditions by being quiet (IMHO). The reason that jurisdictional agencies adopt NFPA 25 mandates to raise the level of fire safety throughout the built environment. Ignoring conditions that could lead to loss of life is antithetical and subverts the intent of such statutory requirements. I cannot tell you how many times we’ve been asked by a property owner to work with them to intentionally dodge plan review, permit and inspection requirements. We were asked as a 3rd party consultant to look at a large tortilla plant last year and the owner had built four platforms on the production floor so supervisors could look down on workers (yeah, like towers at a prison). Then they stored stuff under the towers. Then they had a fire in one of those storage piles and it off-gassed something toxic and ended up shutting down the facility – thank God nobody was seriously injured. The bottom line is that if the FD in that jurisdiction had known, they’d have compelled the owner to update the AFS system. I’m not sure I have any specific advice, but this discussion illustrates that there is an insanely fine line between “best practices” and “intent of the standard” and “putting our heads in the sand”. Steve L. From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2024 7:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas It extends to 25 IF we step outside of it. Write up not protected, fire starts, someone dies because original calculations were way off. Since you started evaluating it at an engineering level, then it will be extended that you neglected to report the inadequate design. IF we stay within 25, we are NOT there to inspect Engineering determinations. We are only there to evaluate the two things previously mentioned. How can you be held liable for sticking to doing the job you were hired to do? What would be the basis of it? R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, C.E.T. Ferguson Fire Design, LLC D: [(602)%20337-0721](602) 337-0721 C: [(307)%20236-8249](307) 236-8249 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2024 10:30 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. ________________________________ David, all very true. But we can also be sued in civil court for not reporting an unsafe condition which results in a loss (liability). My question is does this also extend to someone doing a 25 inspection? If they notice an unsafe condition and do not report it, even though it is not part of their inspection, could they still be held liable in the event of a loss? The answer is not going to come from 25 or State Code, but actual experience. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-554-7054<tel:860-554-7054> (fax) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) On Dec 23, 2024 at 10:11 AM, <David Williams<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: If you hold a PE/FPE license, you are likely to be required to report unsafe conditions as part of your license as protecting the public is part and parcel of such a license to prevent getting pulled up in front of the licensing board for an ethics violation. [Icon Description automatically generated] DAVID WILLIAMS, PE, FPE Senior Mechanical / Fire Protection Engineer LHBcorp.com<https://www.lhbcorp.com/> | PERFORMANCE DRIVEN DESIGN See LHBcorp.com for states of licensure. From: John Denhardt <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: Sunday, December 22, 2024 at 8:51 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas If you are performing a NFPA 25 inspection, stay in you lane. Only do what the standard states and your contract requires. Thanks, John John August Denhardt, P.E Vice President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler Association 301-343-1457 Are you a member with a technical question? Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that AFSA provides is Technical Reviews by our Technical Services Department. It’s like having an FPE on your staff. Visit www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview<https://www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview> to submit a question today! (Member login required.) On Dec 22, 2024, at 20:40, Dominick Kasmauskas <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: You don't often get email from [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. Learn why this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/nj-supreme-court/1677993.html<https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/nj-supreme-court/1677993.html> “Stay in your lane.” IMHO. Dominick Kasmauskas Legislative Consultant American Fire Sprinkler Association (AFSA) 518.937.4790 Kingsport, TN www.FireSprinkler.org<http://www.FireSprinkler.org> On Sun, Dec 22, 2024 at 20:34 Fpdcdesign <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: So what is worse, liability for operating outside a standard or the liability for not reporting a dangerous even if it is outside of that standard? Todd Williams Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-608-4559 On Dec 22, 2024 at 8:19 PM, <Matthew Willis1<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: That is why we operate as Technicians, with predescribed action all written out for us. Diligence dictates we cry foul for sure. Just note as an observation. The NFPA 25 report is not the plcae for it. Now, this is a bit different in LA. One of the states I worked in as an NFPA 25 inspector. LA is a life safety state. So, we are Life Safety Inspectors. There are clear Negligence, and Gross Negligence requirements in obtaining the State License. But in the end, operating outside of the adopted, predescribed standard, is a dangerous liability walk I do not care to take. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, C.E.T. Ferguson Fire Design, LLC D: [http://(602)%20337-0721](602) 337-0721 C: [http://(307)%20236-8249](307) 236-8249 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2024 8:14 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. ________________________________ I understand the requirements and limitations of 25. But let me ask this. If the inspector notices and obvious problem that is outside of 25 and does not report it. If a fire occurs that is caused or exacerbated by the problem that he noticed but did not report, what liability does he have. As a PE, if I notice a dangerous condition and do not reported, I can be held liable. Todd Williams Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-608-4559 On Dec 22, 2024 at 7:57 PM, <Matthew Willis1<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Guys, this is a losing battle with Mike. He vents about how crappy our jobs are on other social media. It's a shame, I used to like corresponding with him. Mike, since our industry is so bad, and you are clearly making bank with your current position, might I suggest: https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/dog-walking.85/<https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/dog-walking.85/> [https://images.platforum.cloud/logos/petforums_co_uk_profile.png]<https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/dog-walking.85/> Dog Walking - UK Pet Forums Forum<https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/dog-walking.85/> Discuss everything regarding dog walking, from places to walk your dog, to help and advice in starting your own dog walking business. www.petforums.co.uk<http://www.petforums.co.uk> R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, C.E.T. Ferguson Fire Design, LLC D: [(602)%20337-0721](602) 337-0721 C: [(307)%20236-8249](307) 236-8249 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ From: Bob Caputo <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2024 2:41 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. ________________________________ Read section 1.1.3 of NFPA 25. You’re inspecting what is there for wear and tear purposes. You are not verifying the design or installation of any system [https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1] Bob Caputo, CFPS President American Fire Sprinkler Association p: 214-349-5965 ext124 w: firesprinkler.org<http://firesprinkler.org> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/facebook_sig.png]<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/twitter_sig.png] <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/linkedin_sig.png] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-> [http://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/184235/dev_images/signature_app/instagram_sig.png] <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg> Train a safer, more efficient workforce. By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training Series for Sprinkler Fitters<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>, you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation crew. Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your company's productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more<https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149>. On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 10:35 AM Brandon Bridgford <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: How do you approach unprotected areas in regards to ITM and NFPA 25. I know there was a discussion in the past regarding inspecting a system as is, rather than writing up deficiencies that have to do with system design. I have been told that this can open up more liability if you are not inspecting all design elements (i.e. density, hazard levels, etc.) Thank you! Brandon _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org<https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
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