David, all very true. But we can also be sued in civil court for not reporting an unsafe condition which results in a loss (liability). My question is does this also extend to someone doing a 25 inspection? If they notice an unsafe condition and do not report it, even though it is not part of their inspection, could they still be held liable in the event of a loss? The answer is not going to come from 25 or State Code, but actual experience. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax) 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
> > On Dec 23, 2024 at 10:11 AM, <David Williams > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > If you hold a PE/FPE license, you are likely to be required to report unsafe > conditions as part of your license as protecting the public is part and > parcel of such a license to prevent getting pulled up in front of the > licensing board for an ethics violation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DAVID WILLIAMS, PE, FPE > > > > Senior Mechanical / Fire Protection Engineer > > > > > > > > LHBcorp.com (https://www.lhbcorp.com/) | PERFORMANCE DRIVEN DESIGN > > > > See LHBcorp.com for states of licensure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: John Denhardt <[email protected]> > Date: Sunday, December 22, 2024 at 8:51 PM > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > <[email protected]> > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas > > > > > If you are performing a NFPA 25 inspection, stay in you lane. Only do what > the standard states and your contract requires. > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > John August Denhardt, P.E > > > > > > > Vice President Engineering and Technical Services > > > > > > American Fire Sprinkler Association > > > > > > 301-343-1457 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you a member with a technical question? > > > > Don't forget one of the most valuable resources that AFSA provides is > Technical Reviews by our Technical Services Department. It’s like having an > FPE on your staff. Visit www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview > (https://www.firesprinkler.org/technicalreview) to submit a question today! > (Member login required.) > > > > > > > > On Dec 22, 2024, at 20:40, Dominick Kasmauskas > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't often get email from [email protected]. Learn why > this is important (https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/nj-supreme-court/1677993.html > > > > > > > > > > > “Stay in your lane.” IMHO. > > > > > > > > Dominick Kasmauskas > Legislative Consultant > American Fire Sprinkler Association (AFSA) > 518.937.4790 > Kingsport, TN > www.FireSprinkler.org (http://www.FireSprinkler.org) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 22, 2024 at 20:34 Fpdcdesign <[email protected] > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what is worse, liability for operating outside a standard or the > > liability for not reporting a dangerous even if it is outside of that > > standard? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd Williams > > > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > > > > > > > 860-608-4559 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 22, 2024 at 8:19 PM, <Matthew Willis1 > > > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is why we operate as Technicians, with predescribed action all > > > written out for us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Diligence dictates we cry foul for sure. Just note as an observation. The > > > NFPA 25 report is not the plcae for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, this is a bit different in LA. One of the states I worked in as an > > > NFPA 25 inspector. LA is a life safety state. So, we are Life Safety > > > Inspectors. There are clear Negligence, and Gross Negligence requirements > > > in obtaining the State License. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But in the end, operating outside of the adopted, predescribed standard, > > > is a dangerous liability walk I do not care to take. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthew J. Willis, C.E.T. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ferguson Fire Design, LLC > > > > > > > > > > > > D: (602) 337-0721 (http://(602)%20337-0721)C: (307) 236-8249 > > > (http://(307)%20236-8249) > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2024 8:14 PM > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > <[email protected] > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. > > > DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the > > > sender. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand the requirements and limitations of 25. But let me ask this. > > > If the inspector notices and obvious problem that is outside of 25 and > > > does not report it. If a fire occurs that is caused or exacerbated by the > > > problem that he noticed but did not report, what liability does he have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As a PE, if I notice a dangerous condition and do not reported, I can be > > > held liable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd Williams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 860-608-4559 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 22, 2024 at 7:57 PM, <Matthew Willis1 > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys, this is a losing battle with Mike. He vents about how crappy our > > > > jobs are on other social media. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a shame, I used to like corresponding with him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, since our industry is so bad, and you are clearly making bank > > > > with your current position, might I suggest: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/dog-walking.85/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dog Walking - UK Pet Forums Forum > > > > (https://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/dog-walking.85/) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Discuss everything regarding dog walking, from places to walk your > > > > dog, to help and advice in starting your own dog walking business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.petforums.co.uk (http://www.petforums.co.uk) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Matthew J. Willis, C.E.T. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ferguson Fire Design, LLC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D: [(602)%20337-0721](602) 337-0721C: [(307)%20236-8249](307) > > > > 236-8249 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bob Caputo <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 20, 2024 2:41 PM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > > > > <[email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected])> > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Unprotected areas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. > > > > DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust > > > > the sender. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read section 1.1.3 of NFPA 25. You’re inspecting what is there for > > > > wear and tear purposes. You are not verifying the design or > > > > installation of any system > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Caputo, CFPS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > President > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > American Fire Sprinkler Association > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > p: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 214-349-5965 ext124 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > w: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firesprinkler.org (http://firesprinkler.org) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224) > > > > (https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-) > > > > (https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Train a safer, more efficient workforce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By enrolling your employees in the AFSA Apprenticeship Training > > > > Series for Sprinkler Fitters > > > > (https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149), > > > > you will reap the benefits of a qualified, professional installation > > > > crew. Well-trained employees will work smarter, increasing your > > > > company's productivity and, in turn, its profits. Learn more > > > > (https://www.firesprinkler.org/WWW/Education/Apprentice_Training/WWW/Education/Apprenticeship_Training.aspx?hkey=e88ef09e-d74c-407f-abcd-995aff866149). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 10:35 AM Brandon Bridgford > > > > <[email protected] (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you approach unprotected areas in regards to ITM and NFPA 25. > > > > > I know there was a discussion in the past regarding inspecting a > > > > > system as is, rather than writing up deficiencies that have to do > > > > > with system design. I have been told that this can open up more > > > > > liability if you are not inspecting all design elements (i.e. > > > > > density, hazard levels, etc.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > > [email protected] > > > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > > > mailing list: > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > [email protected] > > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > [email protected] > > (mailto:[email protected]) > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >
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