Andy, first off, this whole email thread was about "hi, this is a new, rough around the edges tool I'm building, that MIGHT benefit SOME people" Suggestions/ideas welcome. When you say "stop" - stop what? Stop coding? I have not done any significant amount of editing since last month, right around the time when Wikidata debacle happened. Also, I think you are ignoring what I said - others who are NOT on this thread have also expressed support - and they have not spoken here, possibly due to the toxic environment. When you say we voted - voted on what? Was there a proposal? Was there a bad action being performed?
Re toxicity - these are not my words to qualify what has been going on, but I do agree with them. I cannot say that I have been perfect in all of my responses, but I do try to keep them civil, and expect the same back. Also, please reread my previous email, I tried to carefully express most issues I encountered. John, noone is saying its a consensus either way. I am WORKING on finding a compromise, while also building a tool that at least some people in some communities find useful. I did draw a comparison to at least two tools - MapRoullette and Osmose. The first - mostly about building "challenges", the second - in how it presented the editing interface. Osmose has many more features than I do, allowing greater editing experience. Also, I do draw a comparison with RawEdit (Osmose) and Level0 - they both allow very quick text editing of the raw XML content - a highly error-prone process that I try to avoid. On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:33 AM, john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I have received praises on OSM-RU channel, > > Wow, within the large number of active mappers there is a very broad range > of opinions. One or two people saying this is wonderful is not a > consensus within OpenStreetMap that it is. > > Within OpenStreetMap the authority is normally accepted to be the local > mappers and the DWG. There are processes to follow for automated edits. > > I seem to recall you drawing a comparison between your work and > MapRoulette. MapRoulette identifies problems and has mappers resolve > them one at a time. My understanding is it does not make changes or add > anything to the database. Your approach seems to be quite different and I > don't think the two can be compared. > > My understanding is you have not followed these processes and have ignored > the wishes of local mappers. This is not a personal attack these are > issues and concerns. > > Could you be so kind as to address the issues and concerns raised please. > > Especially not taking into account the wishes of the local communities > when expressed. > > Many Thanks > > Cheerio John > > > > > > On 15 October 2017 at 08:04, Yuri Astrakhan <yuriastrak...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Andu, with all due respect, you are misrepresenting things. I have >> received praises on OSM-RU channel, and that's where I got my first bug >> reports and suggestions that were quickly fixed. The current mailing >> thread also received a praise from Steve. I have received a private email >> explicitly praising this tool, some twitter feedback, plus, some general >> encouragements for my efforts. So, despite some vocal people on one side of >> the issue, claiming to represent "the community" is not accurate, as others >> have expressed opposing views. Thus, it is not as uniform as you try to >> portray it, but rather, as any other conflict, deserves a thoughtful >> approach to attempt to balance goals of everyone, and to find a valuable >> compromise. >> >> At the same time, judging from the fact that someone did not feel >> comfortable emailing to the group, there seems to be significant toxicity >> and bullying going on. There was a number of personal attacks, which to me >> seems to be a violation of our communication policies, and which I >> deliberately ignore. So no, I see some people in the community may support >> it, but do not want to participate in such a violent discussion. When >> someone is foaming at the mouth, people tend to stay away, rather than >> engage in a constructive discussion. >> >> Luckily, there has been some valuable feedback too, and I hope our >> community will be mature enough to provide more broadly. For example, >> Simon was very clear and explicit about the exact deficiencies he objected >> to - something that I attempted to rectify, and will continue to improve >> on. Some other remarks, despite being presented in a bad form, lead me to >> more good fixes such as a mandatory high zoom before editing. I am clearly >> continuing to participate in the discussion, and try to abstain from >> discussing PEOPLE, but instead concentrate on a specific IDEA being >> presented in this thread, and the specific PROBLEMS it tries to solve. As a >> volunteer. Without any financial benefit from anything I do. Same as many >> other participants on this channel, regardless of their views. Trying to >> maneuver between the abstract philosophy, various believes of what is the >> "right thing to do", and the specific problems and solutions. >> >> P.S. @mmd, sorry for not replying earlier. I suspect you meant it as an >> "ad absurdum" argument. Thing is, Wikidata does use wiki pages to store bot >> states. Mostly bots generate various talk pages and templates, and users >> sometimes modify those talk pages to control the bots. Yet, this tool has >> nothing to do with Wikidata, so it is a moot point to discuss storing OSM >> metadata there. See my reply about the "nobot" tag. I think it would help >> to partially heal the bot-nobot divide, as it gives control over each >> object to editors, and allows mini-bots. >> >> And one last thing. Something that has helped me many times to find >> COMPROMISE in a forum discussion. When replying, let's try to sum up the >> opponent's position and the reasons for that position, and explain why you >> think it is incorrect. Perhaps we should learn from the high school debate >> class? Sorry for the long email. >> >> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 6:38 AM, ajt1...@gmail.com <ajt1...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On 15/10/2017 11:04, Christoph Hormann wrote: >>> >>>> On Sunday 15 October 2017, Yuri Astrakhan wrote: >>>> >>>>> [...] I was following up on the Christoph Hormann's >>>>>>> idea of the "bot=no" tag, to "allow mappers to opt out of bot >>>>>>> edits on a case-by-case basis." >>>>>>> >>>>>> No, you were not, likely because you misunderstood my suggestion >>>>>> which is likely because you don't get how OpenStreetMap is working >>>>>> overall. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would strongly advise you to reconsider your whole approach to >>>>>> OpenStreetMap and to interacting with the OpenStreetMap community. >>>>>> >>>>> Christoph, kindly explain, instead of making snide remarks. You have >>>>> not added to the discussion, but instead raised the level of toxicity >>>>> of this channel even further. Note that several people have already >>>>> noted that this channel is toxic and refused to participate in it, >>>>> rather than being productive and beneficial to everyone involved. >>>>> >>>> I rest my case. >>>> >>>> >>> Yuri, >>> >>> In English there is a common phrase "which part of **** *** do you not >>> understand" (expletive removed because people offended by such words may be >>> reading). >>> >>> This thread https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-October/ >>> thread.html#79145 currently has replies from 9 people. 1 is asking a >>> question but all other replies are entirely negative (including comments >>> such as "I'm appalled" and "that isn't acceptable behaviour"). >>> >>> Christoph Hormann's comment above is not a snide remark; it's entirely >>> reasonable based on your actions so far - for an example of that see Tomas' >>> reply earlier in the thread, or indeed almost any of the other interactions >>> that you've had with the OSM community. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Andu >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk mailing list >>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >> >> >
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