Dean Moore
Fear God and keep His commandments/ trust Jesus
> [Original Message]
> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 1/19/2004 11:11:29 AM
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] False Teachers
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Even Paul, in his letter to the Romans, speaks about
> >> how God's grace manifests itself even greater in the
> >> presence of sin (Romans 5:20). This at first seems
> >> contrary to how many people think about God's grace.
> >> We generally think that God is favorable toward those
> >> who refrain from sin. Nevertheless, the Scriptures
> >> are true and cannot be broken. Therefore, we need
> >> to understand the work of God's grace in the life
> >> of the unbeliever and sinner.
>
> Dean writes:
> > I believe Paul was talking about those who are born again
> > -with a focus on the young Christian who tried his best
> > to do right? Do you agree?
>
> No, I do not agree. Paul is talking about those Jews who have not been
> born again. He is speaking about those under the law.
Dean writes:
The point I am attempting to made here is that this grace comes to
believers only-It does not by any means abound upon those who are
unrepenting. The only ones who can claim that grace is those who are born
again-but what group of true believers-have grace and sin at the same
time-It can only be those who have not grown into the word enough to
understand the full scope of God's commamdments.Yes grace is there for the
lost Jew but he must be willing to receive Christ in order to have this
grace. If a criminal went into the presence of a Judge for a crime
committed-and does not have the favor of the judge then that criminal will
pay for that crime-if he has favor (grace) from that judge then-the judge
will show mercy.Will a good judge show mercy and give grace to a criminal
who continues to commit crimes?To receive grace is to receive mercy. A
unrepenting sinner will never receive grace from God-and there is only one
type of grace not many types-grace is salvation from the penalty of the law.
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>
> Moreover THE LAW ENTERED, THAT THE OFFENCE MIGHT ABOUND. But where sin
> abounded, grace did much more abound. (Romans 5:20 KJV)
>
> Those who have been born again are not under the law, and the offence
> does not abound in those who are born again and in Christ.
Dean writes:
If those who are born again return to sin -and continues therein -then the
full weight of the law falls upon them (Heb. 6:6)
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>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Jesus clearly taught a specific work of the Holy Spirit in the life
> of
> >> the unbeliever. It deserves our attention. Consider the following
> >> passage:
> >>
> >> Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go
> >> away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but
> if
> >> I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will
> reprove
> >> the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin,
> because
> >> they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father,
> and
> >> ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is
> >> judged. (John 16:7-11 KJV)
>
> Dean wrote:
> > And wasn't Jesus speaking to the Apostles?
>
> Yes, he was speaking to the Apostles about the work of the Holy Spirit
> in UNBELIEVERS. The passage says, "BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME." So
> would this not also include unbelieving Mormons?
Dean writes:
I really can't quite make out your point here? If you think I said Mormons
cannot be saved-then rest assured that I believe Mormons CAN be saved.I
reprove the world of sin is to let the world know what sin is-Yes the
spirit does this-All men received light because of Christ (John 1)-so they
will have no excuse. But that by no means is grace.
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > Romans 16:17 ...contrary to the doctrine which
> > you have learned; and avoid them.
>
> You must define THE DOCTRINE. The doctrine is according to holiness in
> Christ Jesus. This passage is warning us to avoid those who divide
> believers one from another, not because of sin, but because of religious
> philosophy and dogma. The dividing line is Jesus Christ, not religious
> philosophy.
Dean writes:
The dividing line is if they preach any other Gospel (Gal.1:8)But though,
or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which
we have preached unto you, let him be accused.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel
unto you than that ye have received, let him be accused.
Well in case you haven't noticed the Mormons preach another gospel. Barns
stated that we are to withdraw from them-check you commentary.
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>
> Furthermore, this should not be so interpreted that we should never
> preach to truth to the lost. Some might argue that we have no business
> declaring the truth to the lost whatsoever. Some might use this passage
> to argue that you should avoid the sinners, by not preaching to them in
> parks or public streets. Surely you do not take this passage to mean
> this, do you?
Dean writes:
You seem to ask me that question a lot-The answer is NO- preach to the
lost-avoid a false prophet that bring another gospel. Why would I go out
and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ if I believe this?
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > I would agree that the first work of Holy spirit will be
> > towards those who God know will chose him-the others will
> > only hear the words and reject those words-to their deeper
> > destruction.
>
> You ascribe to much virtue to men's choosing, in my opinion. God loved
> us first, while we were yet sinners. Before we chose him, he chose us.
> God calls many, but chooses few. You need to work this into your
> theology, IMO.
Dean writes:
So that I can also be as you and not follow the clear teaching of the
bible. Of one can reject Christ-one can also choose Christ.Kinda goes
together huh?
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > The second work will not be giving until they repent
> > unto Jesus-and yes there is no one type of people who
> > he may or may not work with-but a proven false teacher
> > is another matter-that you will have to deal with at
> > some point.
>
> Paul was once a proven false teacher, and many would have nothing to do
> with him, even after he came to Christ. That is the spirit from which
> you speak.
Dean writes:
When have I rejected someone who teaches truth? You want that to be what I
preach but it is not so-for we all were wrong at one time and truth came
and we died to that truth.It also came to the Mormons here-and they
remained alive to a lie-and still insist on the lie contrary to that truth.
The truth was rejected therefore grace does not abound upon them-wrath
abides upon them. If one does not serve God then who do they serve David?
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>
> Dean wrote:
> >>> Didn't these demons in Matt 8:29 acknowledge his
> >>> power and authority? Reread it.
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Yes, they acknowledged his power and authority, but
> >> they did not confess him as Lord. Demons acknowledge
> >> Jesus as Lord in the same way that Howard Dean recognizes
> >> George Bush as President. :-)
>
> Dean wrote:
> > How could they acknowledge His power and authority without
> > realizing who he was? Do they not go together?
>
> As I said before, they acknowledge who he is, his power and authority,
> but they do not confess him as their Lord. I gave you the example of
> Howard Dean, who surely acknowledges President Bush as President, but he
> also says in the next breath that Bush is not his neighbor. He does not
> respect Bush and he hopes to displace Bush from being his President. In
> the same way, demons hope to displace Jesus Christ from his place and do
> not confess him as Lord.
They called Him the Son of God-They knew He would torment them ( in hell)at
some point in time. They begged him to be allowed to go into the herd of
swine. What is the point of this? Are you saying that Davh can say Jesus is
Lord? And that would make him saved?Are you saying a Devil cannot lie and
say these words?? If I stood in front of a crowd of Sodomites and challenge
them to say Jesus is Lord-are you saying that they cannot do so? Would not
the passage be point to them saying it and meaning it? No one who
teaches/preaches/ speaks another gospel can say that and mean it concerning
the Jesus of the Bible!
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > Because Daveh says he is a sinner-then his false
> > teaching are to be ignored? Where do you get this stuff?
>
> We should never IGNORE false teachings. Rather, we recognize them and
> point out the errors. We would be ignoring his false teachings if we
> kicked him off the list and then had no opportunity to address his
> errors.
Dean writes:
And who many times have you addressee their error? Yet they keep speaking
lies. Tell me what is seducing spirits??
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>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Setting Mormons aside for a moment, I'm not sure that your statement
> >> stands even concerning those who are in the light. For example, I
> >> believe that Kevin is in the light. He is my brother in the Lord and
> he
> >> has been born again. Yet, I have heard him teach something contrary
> to
> >> the light. He has taught that the Holy Spirit does not work in the
> >> lives of modern believers as taught in passages like John 14:12,
> 16:13,
> >> Acts 2:38-39, etc. Kevin has taught that there are no prophets
> today,
> >> which is in violation of 1 Cor. 12:21 because I have testified as his
> >> brother in Christ that I am a prophet. Read the whole text, 1 Cor.
> >> 12:12-31, and see how prophets are specifically mentioned as being
> part
> >> of the body of Christ in verse 28. So how can Kevin teach contrary
> to
> >> the light, yet be in the light, according to your perspective?
>
> Dean wrote:
> > David if you believe Kevin is wrong-can you say you are correct
> > about all what you teach? No you cannot-as you still have growing
> > to do.
>
> That is the point, Dean. Which of us can judge which philosophies
> warrant excommunication? Jesus Christ is the dividing line for
> Christians, and if this were a Christian list we would use that, but
> this is not a Christian list. This is a list for all, Christians and
> non-Christians alike, to discuss what each of us perceive is Truth. I
> believe ultimately all roads to Truth lead to Jesus Christ because Jesus
> is Truth.
Dean writes:
Then- pray tell-whom is the bible telling us to avoid?Who is accuses? Who
are we to beware of? What then is a false prophet? So Kevin has been taught
that the preachers replaced the prophets-does that mean he teacher/preaches
another gospel-No he does not-Isn't that like straining at a gnat and
swallowing a camel?Prophets and preachers both speak the word of God-so
what is the big difference=-He believes that there are men that speak Gods
word-I see no fault? If you are a prophet then lets test this-Tell us some
prophecies and you can prove yourself to Kevin.The bible speaks of testing
a prophet let us test you?
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>
> Dean wrote:
> > The same is with all of us here on this site but we
> > have a base to grow from-We speak the words of the
> > Jesus of the Bible not the words of the devil-God
> > had sex with Mary?
>
> I don't know anybody on this list who believes that God had sex with
> Mary, but even if they did, how is that worse than a man who claims that
> Jesus anoints no more prophets today and that the Holy Spirit no longer
> reveals the mind of Christ through the Spirit? I consider the latter to
> be a much more dangerous doctrine.
Dean writes:
Because someone believes in preachers instead of prophets -This is worse
than someone who claims God sinned?Mormons hold this doctrine-there are
Mormon on this site-have you been so long with them and don't know this?.
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>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> No, I am not telling you that there is another way to know them. I'm
> >> simply saying that just because someone is a false prophet, that does
> >> not mean that the Holy Spirit has had nothing to do with them. Just
> >> look at Balaam as an obvious example. Balaam was a false prophet,
> yet
> >> the Holy Spirit spoke through him blessings upon Israel, did he not
> (see
> >> Numbers 24)?
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Read the rest of the story-Balaam errors in the matter of pe-or
> > and lead Israel to sin (Num. 23:28, Num.25:18) and many in Israel
> > went to hell because of him-(2 peter 2:15) This is what I am
> > warning about David! The fruit is good to eat saith Daveh and the
> > devil.
>
> You still avoided my point. Balaam WAS a false prophet. Yes, he did
> lead Israel to sin, but was he completely unacquainted with the Holy
> Spirit?
>
> Dean wrote:
> > So you ignore the warning of false prophets and allow them
> > access to the brethren because they is a chance they will
> > be saved-That makes the devils job a lot easier. He must
> > love this site!
>
> Why do you always turn every argument into an ad hominem attack? It is
> almost impossible to discuss an issue with you without you turning it
> into personal attacks. My position is that we should NOT ignore false
> prophets, so please stop misrepresenting my position. My position is
> that we should beware of false teachers and correct falsehoods according
> to the light that we have.
>
> Kevin and Judy have both brought up yet another false teaching. They
> deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ. I will address this in future
> posts as I am able to make time to do so. The point is that I am not
> going to excommunicate Kevin and Judy for denying the incarnation of
> Jesus Christ. I correct false teaching. I hope we can discuss it so
> that the Truth will be manifested to all.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Over 4 years and Daveh still teaches the words of Satan-
> > and he is here to learn? And you allow this?
>
> In my opinion, DaveH has learned more on this site than you have. But
> even if my perspective on this were proven to be false, I would still
> allow him here because he seems to understand that the purpose of this
> list is to discuss truth without regard to religious bigotry. I wish
> you too would understand the value of this list with regards to study
> and learning.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > They serve Satan what can they have that we need to hear?
> > Are you saying that God will send us word to grow from
> > someone who believes we should eat the fruit and be a God?
>
> Yes, God can use anyone to speak, even a donkey. Pride is that which
> tells us that we cannot learn anything from sinners. The Pharisees fell
> into this elitist trap. You are currently in that same trap, but your
> pride of salvation prevents you from seeing it.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Then what -pray tell- does it mean to beware of wolves
> > in sheep clothing? What is Jesus trying to tell us?
> > What is a wolf? I would like you to answer this not
> > delete it!
>
> Well, Mormons are not what I consider to be wolves in sheep's clothing.
> They are so far away from what most Christians consider to be that which
> have the words of life that they are considered to be wolves roaming
> outside the flock. The wolves in sheep's clothing, in my opinion, are
> primarily those among us. If you are a Baptist, it would be other
> Baptists who are not truly born again. If you are a Wesleyan, it would
> be those Wesleyans who deceive the brethren.
>
> Jesus warns us that we will have false teachers among us, and Jesus says
> to hear them and listen to them, only do not do as they do. You even
> quoted John Wesley who affirmed this, that Jesus taught us to listen to
> false teachers. Yet, for some reason, you continue to reject the
> teaching of Jesus Christ and of John Wesley in this regard.
>
> What Jesus wants us to do is discern between the wolves in sheep's
> clothing and those who truly follow Him. Jesus wants us to walk in
> truth, even in the midst of wolves. He wants us to be wise as serpents
> but harmless as doves, meaning that unlike wolves which divide some of
> the sheep from one another in order that they may devour them, he wants
> us to be wise about who the true sheep are but not excommunicate the
> wolves from the flock. Sheep do not chase the wolves away. They just
> recognize the wolves and keep their distance. In like manner, this is
> how we should walk, wise but harmless to others.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > And do you not think that Daveh is waiting in wait for me
> > or Kevin to make a mistake?
>
> I think DaveH wishes you guys would stop making so many mistakes. :-)
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Do you not think that Jesus was used the pharisee and this
> > event as a teaching tool to show us what they are so we can
> > avoid them?
>
> No. He was showing us how to walk among the wolves and not be devoured
> by them.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Did he not pronounce judgement upon them-and were they
> > not warned to a deeper judgement?
>
> Yes, and so ought we to warn false teachers among us. We cannot do that
> on this list if we excommunicate all false teachers.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Did he return the next night to dine with them?
> > Lots of unanswered questions huh?
>
> No, I don't see many unanswered questions at all. It all seems pretty
> clear to me.
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Judy and I have both addressed this with you many times,
> >> but you seem unable to assimilate this information in
> >> the same way that the Mormons cannot comprehend the
> >> false teachings that we expose in their teachings.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > That can be shot both ways-Both the Mormons and TT fail
> > to heed my warnings-can I not say the same?
>
> No. I think I have heard everything you have said. The difference is
> that I disagree with you and I attempt to share information with you
> that would put your objections into a different light. For example, I
> have pointed out that you misinterpret the word "doctrine" in various
> passages, and you misinterpret what the word "avoid" means. I have
> pointed out how Wesley had the same weakness as you regarding the
> teaching of Christ that we should listen to false teachers like the
> Pharisees, yet he had to acknowledge it as true. Yet, you prefer to
> magnify the weakness of Wesley over the true teaching of Jesus Christ,
> and so you walk in that weakness rather than repenting at the words of
> Jesus Christ (which is what John Wesley did).
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Jesus spoke to the woman at the well and brought her words of
> >> life. He did not say in his heart, "she is a Samaritan, so
> >> I will have nothing to do with her."
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Yes he warned her and she listened -Does Daveh listen?
> > I have been to the well with him-has he gone and told
> > his brethren to come and listen to us as the women did?
>
> The woman never converted in the sense that she claimed that Jerusalem
> was the place where one should worship God. She did not forsake all her
> Samaritan ways at this single event with Jesus. Rather, she simply saw
> that this man was a prophet and might possibly be the Christ.
>
> The point is that Jesus met her where she was at. He did not demand
> that she forsake her Samaritan ways before he would talk truth with her.
> At the same time, he did not agree with her erroneous ways. Rather,
> concerning where men ought to worship and who they worship, Jesus
> repudiated her without rejecting her outright as a person.
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> It seems to me that you think it is ok for Baptists
> >> to be on this list but not Mormons. Am I wrong in
> >> this perspective?
>
> Dean wrote:
> > Mormons and baptist are not on the same list with God-
> > The baptist teach not to eat the fruit of sin-the
> > Mormons teach to eat this fruit- Big difference huh?
>
> And if we pick some other doctrine, the big differences would be just as
> glaring, but it would be the Baptists who have the bigger problem. Your
> answer shows that you think God has a list which favors Baptists and
> disfavors Mormons. I disagree. I don't think God favors one religion
> over another. There is no respect of persons with God.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > I agree with an open forum but to allow a false prophet
> > in the mist of the brethern-I don't agree.
>
> You just contradicted yourself. If you do not agree to allow false
> prophets here, then you do not agree with an open forum. An open forum,
> by definition, means allowing everyone. You should say that you
> disagree with the idea that we should have any kind of open forum. You
> believe that the forum should be closed and only allow Christians.
>
> Dean wrote:
> > But I don't at this point think you will hear me.
> > How can a Christian fulfill the great commission
> > if they must set their Christianity aside for this
> > site?
>
> The Great Commission is about causing men to become disciples of Jesus
> Christ, not about furthering some Christian sect. Unless you can set
> aside your religiousness, you cannot fulfill the Great Commission
> because causing men to become disciples of Christ and causing men to
> become Christians often are at odds with one another.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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