Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

[Terry Clifton]

I also would like to point out another quote from Thomas Torrance that seems unbiblical. On p. 94, Torrance writes: "Jesus Christ ... has thereby already made you his own before and apart from your ever believing in him. He has bound you to himself by his love in a way that he will never let you go, for even if you refuse him and damn yourself in hell his love will never cease." The problems that I have with this statement is as follows: 1. Many passages, such as the following, indicate that it is our receiving of Christ and our faith in him that puts us into Christ. "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:11-13 KJV) Also, John 3:16 says, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish." Mark 16:16 says, "he that believeth not shall be damned." It seems foolish to me for anyone to remove the faith of the believer from the gospel message. Even when the Ethiopian eunuch asked to be baptized into Christ, Philip made sure that he first believed with all his heart. Those who do not believe are unworthy of Christ. After baptizing a man in a park fountain, another man came up to me and asked if he could be sprinkled. I told him he could die and go to hell. Jesus died public on a cross, and he didn't want to get all wet. I told him that his faith was not serious, and that he needed to get right with God. His faith told me where he was at. If I believed this stuff that Torrance teaches, I would never challenge anyone. I suppose Torrance would tell even Simon Magus that he is accepted by God before he even believes. Peter told Simon that he would perish with his money. He told him that his heart was not right and that he needed to repent of his wickedness and be forgiven before God would accept him. 2. Jesus is presented as a Judge, which means that Jesus casts people into hell. He does so from anger, from "the wrath of God." God is angry with the wicked and hates them, but Torrance claims that God continues to love them even when they "damn themselves." It is bogus to think that anyone in their right mind would choose damnation of hell. Consider the rich man in Luke 16. He didn't want to be in Hades. He begged for Abraham to allow Lazarus to go warn his brothers. If God had offered him a way out of there, he surely would have took it. To suggest that sinners choose hell and that God is such a sissy that he would never cast anyone into hell as a form of judgment makes a mockery out of Scripture. 3. Psalm 5 describes the judgment of God in the following way: "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." (Psalms 5:4-6 KJV) Clearly, it says that GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. As the Calvinist Jonathan Edwards has pointed out, the object of God's wrath is the sinner, not the sin. God casts the sinner into hell. It seems to me that Torrance makes the judgment of God unintelligible. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ========================================================================== We have never been more in agreement brother.  If God hates sin, at some point He also has to hate the one who will not turn from sin.  The psalmist was well aware of that. Terry Terry