I agree -- I don't think a Webware book would work. In fact, I don't think Python is ready for any web programming books
It's very ready..but what should that book look like? Personally, I really like Steve Holden's book, but it's at a low level. It has the stuff I need to understand to be able to someday work with the internals of a package like Webware, but if you want to just put a site together, the publishing world makes it look like ZOPE or straight CGI is your only answer.
or just cover one framework under the guise of being general. There was one that covered Slither, I think... ever heard of Slither?
I think Slither was pretty much written for the book, as was Holden's AWeFUL, although Holden was quite clear that AWeFUL was meant to be a teaching example, not a robust framework.
The reality is that Python web programming is a fucking mess. It's pathetic. There's no way to write a book, because there's no material that's appropriate book material.
I think this is a chicken-egg thing. Books are used by the general public as a way to gage the viability of something. The fact that there are a lot of Python books helps a lot of folks see it as viable.
Also, I don't think one could just write a Webware book with Webware as it stands. Writing the book would help highlight a LOT of places that Webware needs to be cleaned-up, improved, added-to, etc. It doesn't have to a be a whole book, any one chapter in the Wiki will help.
I like Webware, but it's not going to take over the world, not even the modest Python world.
It doesn't need to take over the world. Frankly, I had a very hard time choosing between Quixote, CherryPy, Albatross, Webware, etc, etc. If Any of these had really comprehensive documentation (i.e., a book), I'd have gone with it.
All the other frameworks are in the same shape as Webware -- they have some users, occasional spurts of activity. Some have solid enough communities to have a viable future, but many do not. None of them is compellingly great. Yes, even Webware.
Right, it's like the GUI frameworks, only worse. And it hurts Python adoption a lot. Frankly, it seems to me that there are a Huge number of frameworks that were written with a "more lightweight than Zope" goal, and I didn't see a clear distinction. Unfortunately, I think there is too small a barrier to entry, so a lot of people decide to roll their own.
BTW, if anyone wants to talk about these larger issues, Web-SIG is probably an appropriate venue: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig
That is a good idea. Personally, I have far to little to offer. I just want something simple, complete and documented that works.
I think I started this thread because I had a colleague who was considering using Python to build a web app. If I could have pointed him to a book (or a web site, I suppose, but a book gives added legitimacy) that he could read, and it would tell him how to do everything he needed to do, he would have used it. As it was, he found himself wading through all the various web app frameworks out there, and then looking at a PHP book, that told him just how do so what he needed (A fairly simple database-backed web app.)
I have a level of commitment to Python that got me this far, but I'd really like that book too!
Shayne ONeill wrote:
I wonder if its worth writing a "good" chapter on webware, and hawking it out to the book venders for inclusion in whatever python tome they come out with next?
Well, that could help, but it might just contribute to the "There's more than one way to do it" state of web development with Python.
Todd Grimason wrote:
Seems one group just needs to make a kick-ass framework, push it hard, and build support, Darwin (the guy not OS) style. Not an easy thing to do... but not impossible!
Exactly. It's hard without the profit motive...Open source projects tend to get to the point where they are useful to their developers easily...getting beyond that is tough. What's the motivation?
Anyway, the recent work on updated the web site, and getting new stuff in a nice Wiki is a great move in the right direction. If we really keep building the wiki, it could turn into a good basis for a book some day.
-Chris
--
Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
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