date:20041228

 So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not 
the last prophet, but he wasn't even the last manifestation in 
the Prophetic Cycle? 


Dear Gilberto,

In response to the above comment I would like to offer a 
personal observation:


In relating the internment of the Báb's remains on Mt. Carmel, 
the Guardian referred to the Báb's life as standing at the 
confluence of TWO UNIVERSAL PROPHETIC CYCLES:


Thus ended a life which posterity will recognize as standing 
at the confluence of two universal prophetic cycles, the 
Adamic Cycle stretching back as far as the first dawnings of 
the world's recorded religious history and the Bahá'í Cycle 
destined to propel itself across the unborn reaches of time 
for a period of no less than five thousand centuries. 
(Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 54)


In several instances, Shoghi Effendi has referred to 
`Abdu'l-Bahá as the Pivot of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant.  He was 
the self acknowledged Servant of Baha - during the lifetime of 
Bahá'u'lláh and after His ascension.


I think of the Báb as the pivot or as He is known, the Primal 
Point, (the Gate) between Cycles.  This in no way diminishes 
His Revelation which was essential in this transition from one 
cycle to the next.

lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: Not Exhausted

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:20:33 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
  way,
   then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
  God, and then
   you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain
  such behavior
   through progressive revelation.
 
  But if you do apply certain minimal moral
   standards to the children of
  Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and
   couldn't have
  originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old
   TEstament
  must have had some other source.


 
 I'm not sure who wrote the above, but to me it involves an awful lot of
 assumptions that don't ultimately stand up.  We seem to get tied up in a lot
 of minutiae instead of simply opening up our minds and hearts to the Divine.

Gilberto:
Which assumptions don't stand up? And even if you are going to open up
your mind and heart to the divine, is it true that it speaks
everywhere equally? I mean, if a book endorses genocide can you
seriously accept it wholeheartedly as scripture?

Peace
Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Past Revelations

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:23:00 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:45:16 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that
 I think we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's time
 has
 passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have ceased to
 admire Rome.


Gilberto:
  I see your point and would tend to agree with you in
 mundane examples
 but when you are talking about divine revelation I think
 you start to run into problems.

Rich:
 How so?

Gilberto:
In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing is
perfect so its not a big deal for it to be improved upon later. Like a
sports record... there is always going to be someone else later who
will run faster, be stronger, jump higher, farther, etc. But thinking
of God in that way comes out very much like faint praise. It tends to
accuse God of limitation and imperfection.

Peace

Gilberto



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Re: Perennial Bab?

Gilberto:   I think that if God is really speaking and a 
religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by 
another in order to progress. If the revelation is really 
inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular 
religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and 
apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. 


from`Abdu'l-Bahá:
 . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the 
fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that 
is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine 
qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of 
Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, 
Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, 
and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC 
CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and 
not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, 
justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, 
benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience 
and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the 
oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.


These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER 
BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for 
ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in 
each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle 
the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human 
virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. .


.These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual 
and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; 
they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle 
of every Prophet.


The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the 
material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of 
worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal 
processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, 
theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which 
refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH 
PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the 
times.   (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)  (my 
caps)


I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans 
are capable are eternally appropriate.   However,  the 
material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced 
to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become 
necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued 
survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.


lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:13:06 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:03:55 PM Central Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 But the sunni and shiite theology is there.Remember the original
 question was your claim that if the majority had accepted Ali that
 Islam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai perspective
 where Shiism was the correct view, then shiism still exists and the
 writings and teachings are still there and in place.

Scott:
 It seems to me that even if Islam had become universally accepted, the
 Revelation would be continued in the future.

Gilberto:
Even from an orthodox Islamic perspective it is conveivable for some
forms of revelation to continue. Kashf, and ilham are thought to
continue among the saints.
(For example some of Ibn al-Arabi and Rumi's writings are said to have
been produced this way) And even if no more prophets are coming,
orthodox Islam still talks about various holy people from God coming
to recharge and guide the community saints (awliya) of different
grades and levels, mujadids (reformers) ever century, the mahdi and
(for shia) the imams.

Secondly, at least personally, I'm more impressed by space and culture
than I am by time. And so if you should me a religion which is
suitable for the spiritual needs of people from different cultures and
civilizations from 622-or-so to 1844 then it should be universal
enough to deal with human beings today.


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:21:49 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto wrote: 
 It depends on what you mean by recognize. Even from a Sunni
 perspective,  Sunnis are supposed to have love for ahl al-bayt. (The
 family of Muhammad).  So Ali, Hassan, and Hussein, are still beloved
 companions who were close to the prophet. Subsequent imams were either
 followers or followers of the  followers. Being sunni doesn't imply
 cheering everything the umayads did and  hating the descendents of the
prophet. Far from it.



Rich:
 I think you're skirting the issue here. Sunni's do not believe that the
 12 Imams were infallible in there interpretation of the Qur'an or that their
 rulings are infallible. Sunnis do not believe that the 12 Imams were the
 temporal AND spriritual head of the Ummah. I know you don't cheer the
 Ummayad, but the majority of Muslims did not follow Hussayn to Karbilah,
 they recognized the leadership of Mu'awiyyah. 

Gilberto:
I think there are a couple of levels of this which were starting to
get blurred. You said that if Ali had been accepted, Islam might have
continued as a valid religion. Right? And I would say that if you
start with the Bahai perspective, that Shia Islam strongly preserves
the teachings of the religion of Islam.

And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as a
spiritual successor to the prophet.

But the sunni and shiite theology is there.

Rich:
So what, so is the Nicean
 creed, does it negate Islam?

Gilberto:
I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic
Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or
never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like
Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim
perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true
followers of Jesus.

 Remember the original
question was your claim that if the majority had
 accepted Ali that
Islam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai
 perspective
where Shiism was the correct view, then shiism still exists and
 the
writings and teachings are still there and in place.

Rich:
Once again, skirting
 the issue. The shi'a believe that the 12th Imam went into occulatation, we
 believe he came out of occultation, ie the Bab and Heralded the Return of
 Christ ie Baha'u'llah. That is Shi'a theology fulfilled to us. 

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you mean by skirting the issue. So what would have
been different if the majority had accepted Ali?


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Perennial Bab?

Yes, Sandra, I've seen that passage from the writings. I would just
think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without
converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law,
you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding
the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities
of contemporary life.

Peace

Gilberto



On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:   I think that if God is really speaking and a
 religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by 
 another in order to progress. If the revelation is really
 inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular
 religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and
 apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times.
 
 
 from`Abdu'l-Bahá:
 
  . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the
 fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that
 is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine
 qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of
 Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah,
 Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh,
 and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC
 CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and
 not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude,
 justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God,
 benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience
 and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the
 oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
 
 These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER
 BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for
 ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in
 each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle
 the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human
 virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. .
 
 .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual
 and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated;
 they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle
 of every Prophet.
 
 The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the
 material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of
 worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal
 processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence,
 theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which
 refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH
 PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the
 times.   (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)  (my
 caps)
 
 I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans
 are capable are eternally appropriate.   However,  the
 material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced
 to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become
 necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued
 survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.
 
 lovingly,  Sandra
 
 
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Re: Perennial Bab?

Yes, Sandra, I've seen that passage from the writings. I would just
think that the material aspect of the Law can be dealt with without
converting to a different religoin. At least in terms of islamic law,
you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding
the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities
of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes
in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam
would have trouble keeping up with.


Peace

Gilberto



On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:42:21 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto:   I think that if God is really speaking and a
 religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by 
 another in order to progress. If the revelation is really
 inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular
 religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and
 apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times.
 
 
 from`Abdu'l-Bahá:
 
  . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the
 fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that
 is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine
 qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of
 Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah,
 Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh,
 and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC
 CYCLES. It will NEVER BE ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and
 not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude,
 justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God,
 benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience
 and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the
 oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.
 
 These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER
 BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for
 ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in
 each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle
 the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human
 virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. .
 
 .These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual
 and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated;
 they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle
 of every Prophet.
 
 The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the
 material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of
 worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal
 processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence,
 theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which
 refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH
 PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the
 times.   (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46)  (my
 caps)
 
 I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans
 are capable are eternally appropriate.   However,  the
 material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced
 to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become
 necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued
 survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.
 
 lovingly,  Sandra
 
 
 __
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Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:29:12 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
   way,
   then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
   God, and then
   you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain
   such behavior
   through progressive revelation.

   But if you do apply certain minimal moral
   standards to the children of
   Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and
   couldn't have
   originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old
   TEstament
   must have had some other source.
 
  Gilberto:
  Which assumptions don't stand up? And even if you are going to open up
  your mind and heart to the divine, is it true that it speaks
  everywhere equally? I mean, if a book endorses genocide can you
  seriously accept it wholeheartedly as scripture?

Dave:
 The very first sentence, if...then...  draws an illogical 
 conclusion.  The
 second thought, ...if you apply certain minimal moral standardsthen
 their behavior also rests on insufficient logic. 


Gilberto:
Logic is a funny thing. I think that standard deductive logic is often
valuable but it needs axioms in order to say anything worthwhile. So I
would agree with you that perhaps what I wrote rests on certain
statements which haven't been proven (at least not in the context of
our discussions), but I would still say those statements were
reasonable (i.e. likely to be true).

In terms of what the Bible says about genocide we can get to that in a
sec but then there was your other comment that.


 Now, in speaking of opening the mind and heart to the divine, if the only
 example you can conceive is one involving the endorsement of genocide, don't
 you think there's something wrong with that picture?


I'm not sure what you mean. We live in a world where there are various
belief systems which say various things. Not everything they teach
necessarily comes from God. Some belief systems are wrong.

The Quran, the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, How to Win Friends and
Influence People, Mein Kapf, a Course in Miracles, the Talmud, the
Bhagavad-Gita, the Communist Manifesto, etc.

These books aren't all equal, they aren't all from God. I'm not sure
why being open to the divine should mean believing everything in every
book.
But to address your concerns about the Bible and genocide, could you
help me find a different way to read these passages?

Deuteronomy 7
[1] 
When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are
entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before
you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the
Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater
and mightier than yourselves,
[2] and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat
them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant
with them, and show no mercy to them.
[3] You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to
their sons or taking their daughters for your sons.
[4] For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve
other gods; then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you,
and he would destroy you quickly.



Deuteronomy 20

[The verses right before this passage say that in cities not in the
promised land, if the city surrenders they enslave everyone. If the
city resists, they kill all the men and enslave the women and
children.]

[16] But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives
you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes,
[17] but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the
Amorites, the Canaanites and the Per'izzites, the Hivites and the
Jeb'usites, as the LORD your God has commanded;
[18] that they may not teach you to do according to all their
abominable practices which they have done in the service of their
gods, and so to sin against the LORD your God.

And then if you looked at the entire book of Joshua you would read
about how the army of the children of Israel went from city to city
and killed everything that had breath. Men, women, children, infants,
the elderly and livestock.

And then later, under the reign of Saul, we can read in 1 Samuel 15
what God's intentions are towards Amalek

And Samuel says to Saul:
[2] Thus says the LORD of hosts, `I will punish what Am'alek did to
Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Am'alek, and utterly destroy all that they have;
do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling,
ox and sheep, camel and ass.'

And then Saul defeats them in battle but fall short:

7] And Saul defeated the Amal'ekites, from Hav'ilah as far as Shur,
which is east of Egypt.
[8] And he took Agag the king of the Amal'ekites alive, and utterly
destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
[9] But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep and
of the oxen and of the

Re: Perennial Bab?

2004-12-28 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Gilberto,

At 07:20 AM 12/28/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure where you started though. I was raised evangelical Christian. So 
the idea of People of the Book was already rathet inclusive from my 
perspective. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily believe that every 
new age syncretic religion was going to be true.

I was raised in a secular Jewish home, and I was not attracted to Judaism and 
Islam for similar reasons. However, had the more universal, syncretist, and 
new age, Jewish Renewal movement (aleph.org) existed back in the late 1960s 
or early 1970s, I might have gotten involved with it (at least for a while). 

For instance, there is a professor where I work who is connected with the 
Jewish Renewal movement. She tells me there are some people who consider 
Christianity and Islam to be legitimate paths, a perspective which would have 
been irresistible to me at 11, 12, or 13 years old. (I could even see myself 
having eventually joined their rabbinical program.) However much I like Aleph, 
I suppose I am grateful I became a Baha'i before it started.

 Moreover the question of whether a religion is true is also seperate from 
 what God's criteria for salvation are.

I was very much a solipsist as a young teenager. Truth, as I saw it, was 
entirely subjective. (In some ways, I haven't changed much grin.) In any 
event, as a kid, Islam, as I saw it, was too close for comfort to Judaism.

But there are some strikingly inclusive passages in Islam as well. For 
example:

I read through them. However, if I asked a Muslim whether future prophets, 
avatars, or (to use my preferred term at the time) sat gurus could have 
followed Muhammad, and the answer was negative, I would have looked elsewhere.

And note that none of these passages even specify believing in Muhammad 
(saaws) as an essential condition. Just tawhid.

Yes.

I'm certainly not saying that following Muhammad is not important. It is. 
Following the Quran and sunnah gives us a particular path where we can grow 
closer to God.But in terms of human salvation its not necessarily a 
deal-breaker.

Interesting.

I'm not sure what that last sentence would mean. I thought the standard Bahai 
statement was that across dispensations the social teachings are different 
but the spiritual teachings are the same. So are you saying that Most 
Bahais are also Traditionalists?

If they believe that, they might be open to the philosophy. ;-) I would not say 
that the spiritual teachings are the same in each Dispensation. Based on God's 
Will, they are, in my view, both eternal and progressive. However, I was 
referring to Baha'is who *explicitly* identified themselves with traditionalist 
esotericism and Platonism. I have known a few.

With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Ronald Stephens

 Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many 
Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence 
at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would 
sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and 
incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier 
and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I run 
into when I try to think through the consequences of such beliefs.

1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand? For 
instance, I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier 
Central Figures into English; so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, 
Arabic, and possibly other languages that he learned at Cambridge?

What languages were spoken by Abdul Baha, and what language were his books 
written in? Did He speak any English? Did He use any interpreters in His 
travels? 

Did Bahaullah speak any English or any language bedsides Persian and Arabic? 
Did the Bab speak Persian and Arabic, or any others? 

2. The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several 
Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an 
understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For 
instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human 
being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate. 

Abraham had doubts. How else could His faith have any meaning? Surely someone 
Omniscient at Will could not have had doubts. In fact, Omniscience at will and 
Omnipotence at will, seem to me to make a mockery of the lives and struggles of 
all of the Prophets and Manifestations. If Abraham were Omniscient, He knew he 
would find a scapegoat and would not have to sacrifice His son. Truly I find 
this to rule out the real meaning of all Their lives, if they were Omniscient.

Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His 
mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend 
to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all 
dignity to me.

The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most 
Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their 
adulthood. 

3. Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith is very unlikely to be able to 
grow enough to have any major impact any time soon, it seems that 1000 years is 
a short time. I do not think the Great Peace can come about in 1000 years. Is 
it therefore possible that the 1000 year Bahai period will be the beginning 
only, and that the full fulfillment will not occur until many Manifestations 
later; all in sort of the Cycle of Fulfillment as Brent Poirier mentioned 
recently, but not within 1000 years; maybe 10,000 years or even 100,000?

If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take literally 
should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, precisely as 
Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), then why 
should we condemn such understangings by current day people? Was a Christian 
who understood the Resurection of Christ to be symbolic wrong and apostate 
until 1844 (and also the second coming)? Is a Baha'i who believes that 
Infallibillity is symbolic, wrong and an apostate? How can you be so sure a 
future Manifestation won't make that precise point?

4. Does Omniscience include the ability to know all about the future, as well 
as the present and the past? It seems to, since you believe in literal 
prophecies? 

How do you reconcile belief in Omniscience and Omnipotence (at will or 
otherwise) with the real world in a logically consistent manner? This 
completely baffles me. You must compartmentalize your mind and have one 
rational side to deal with the real, everyday world, and one irrational side to 
believe in Omniscience and other ideas. 

Pardon me for adding this paragraph, but this is the conclusion that I always 
come to when I try to accept Omniscience, Omnipotence and literal 
Infallibility. Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, 
and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they 
were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives 
acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in 
the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. 

Please dont just read this and respond only to my personal conclusions in the 
last paragraph, but rather I am really really interested in how you answer and 
think about the specific questions I ask in the paragraphs above.

Ron Stephens

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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Popeyesays

I'll attempt to answer some of these (leaving opinion out of my reply til Susan makes comment)

1. The Bab and Baha`u'llah spoke Persian on a day-to-day basis. Neither one was particularly trained in Arabic though both showed a remarkable facility for their use of Arabic. Training young men in Arabic in those days (in Persian speaking countries - Farsi was widely spoken as a lignua franca in several dialects), was rather cursory - kind of like training young Jews to read enough Hebrew for their Bar Mitzvah's. One was supposed to be able to read the Qur'an, but training was perfunctory, especially for Baha`u'llah who was brought up as a noble where reading and writing were secondary to the ability to ride a horse and use a sword. The Bab was a merchant and had equally perfunctory training in Arabic.
The Bab created a very impressive linguistic style in Arabic, many found it hard to read, but many others found it fluent and beautiful. Baha`u'llah was favorably compared to many Arabic and Persian poets.

2) Abdu'l Baha spoke Arabic, Persian and Turkic with fluency. His world travels must have taught him some smatterings of English and French, but he always used interpreters in his discourse with westerners. Shoghi Effendi was trained in Arabic and Persian, Turkic, English and French, attending western schools in the Holy Land and eventually attending the best universities in England. As to his command of English, I have seen a course sylabus for teaching English literature written by non-Native speakers and Shoghi Effendi is used as a prime fine example of non-fiction and philosophy written in English by a non-native speaker and uses Joseph Conrad (a Pole) as its best example in the writing of fiction. Some find Shoghi Effendi's writings in English to be very complex, but it is hard to fault his use of the language by style and grammar usage of his time.

3) The Maiden is a symbol of Revelation for Baha`u'llah. The Bab saw the severed head of Husayn speak. Muhammed was visited by Gabriel. A dove appeared to symbolized divine Revelation for Jesus. Moses heard the burning bush speak. Are these actual physical apparitions? I doubt it. They are apparitions of the Will of God making itself physically manifest to the Manifestations.

4) I think prophecies are to be viewed on several levels simultaneously. To think of prophecies only on the concrete level is to limit one's understanding. Literalists of whatever sort are only trying to understand a small part of the Message of the Messengers. This is true whether studying the prophecies of Christ or the prophecies of Baha`u'llah.

5) The Manifestations are privy to the Will of God and His Omniscience, each and every One of them equally. However, part of Their obedience to the Will of God is that They revealed only what God bid Them reveal. Jesus was speaking the literal truth when He said: "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now."

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Don Calkins

At 11:02 AM -0800 12/28/04, Ronald Stephens wrote:

1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand?
For instance,
I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier Central
Figures into English;
so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, Arabic, and possibly
other languages
that he learned at Cambridge?

As Susan has noted, Shoghi Effendi was fluent in French, even considering
it better than his English.   According to Ruhiyyih Khanum, he also spoke
good German.  When they went to Switzerland, she has said he often visited
in German with visitors in the hotel they stayed at.  Tho' they travelled
in Italian speaking Switzerland, I have never seen or heard of him speaking
Italian.


What languages were spoken by Abdul Baha, and what language were his books
written in?
 Did He speak any English? Did He use any interpreters in His travels?
He corresponded in Turkish with members of the constitutional movement in
Turkey, so Turkish is a language of Revelation.  Very little of this has
even provisional translations.  He apparently could speak *some* English,
but rarely if ever publicly.  I have heard several references to His
having made short comments in English to Americans.  Also there is some
evidence He discussed translations of His talks with translators, such that
they appear to have changed the English wording slightly.



At 2:32 PM -0500 12/28/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Shoghi Effendi was trained in Arabic and Persian, Turkic, English and
French, attending western
 schools in the Holy Land and eventually attending the best universities
in England.
I had not heard of Shoghi Effendi speaking or writing in Turkic.  Do you
have a reference?


Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.



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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Don Calkins

At 2:58 PM -0500 12/28/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:52:57 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I had not heard of Shoghi Effendi speaking or writing in Turkic.  Do you
have a reference?

 It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land,
and the jailers
 of Abdu'l Baha. I assume he had some fluency as did his parents and
grandparents.  

I would assume he had some knowledge of Turkic, but I think fluency is
going too far.  Given that he had some degree of fluency in German, so far
as I know he never corresponded in German with the German Baha'i community.


I would not be surprised if Baha'u'llah knew some Turkic also, but He never
wrote, so far as I know, in Turkic.  Rather I think all His own tablets
were written in Persian.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.



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RE: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted

2004-12-28 Thread dlmbrt

Gilberto wrote:  
could you help me find a different way to read these passages?

In the context of the larger picture, i.e., the Bible in its entirety
including the New Testament; the picture that historical studies give us of
the bronze-age world of the patriarchs; and the comparative realities of the
Revelations of the Manifestations.

Dave Lambert
www.vintagerr.com



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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Smaneck




In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:03:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dr. 
  Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai 
  scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at 
  Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would 
  sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and 
  incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier 
  and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I 
  run into when I try to think through the consequences of such 
beliefs.
Dear Ron, 

Before we start, let's keep a couple of things clear. As I understand it 
the term 'omniscient at will' applies *only* the Manifestation. That phrase 
occurs only in a letter written on the Guardian's behalf wherein he insists that 
*unlike* the Manifestation he is not omniscient at will. I don't know of any 
place in the Writings where the term "Omnipotent at will" occurs but inasmuch as 
the Manifestation reflects all the Names and Attributes of God one could infer 
this. But it would be just that, an inference. I don't think I've ever 
talked about this myself. Furthermore, I have always argued that it 
appears to be the case that much of the time the Manifestation does *not* will 
omniscience. 

Others have answered your questions regarding the languages of certain 
figures. Just one minor correction. I didn't indicate that the Guardian's French 
was better than his English (although that is what he won prizes for at the 
Syrian Protestant College) only that this was the language in which he received 
his early education. And he always counted in that language. He went to Oxford, 
by the way, not Cambridge and he was already fluent in both English and French 
before he went there. 

"The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of 
several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent 
with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For 
instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human 
being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate."

Baha'u'llah sometimes referred to Himself as illiterate as well. ;-} And 
yes, all Manifestations have attested to their humanity. As for Abraham, I think 
historically speaking it is difficult to say anything at all about Abraham. We 
can't even say for sure that He existed. Stories are told about Him in both the 
Bible and the Qur'an to make specific points, but I wouldn't use them to 
speculate regarding His existential state. "Why did Bahaullah need to 
have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew 
about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to 
talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me."

I believe the Heavenly Maiden is the Divine Nature of Baha'u'llah Himself. 

"The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most 
Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their 
adulthood."

I expect that on some level that is true. I think what you are missing in 
this whole discussion is the understanding that Manifestations have *both* a 
human and a divine nature. "Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith 
is very unlikely to be able to grow enough to have any major impact any time 
soon, it seems that 1000 years is a short time. I do not think the Great Peace 
can come about in 1000 years."

I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the Baha'i Faith's ability to grow 
enough to have a major impact soon. I think we will see tremendous growth within 
the next forty years. But I also think it is quite possible that the Most Great 
Peace will not come within this 1000 Dispensation. 
"If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take 
literally should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, 
precisely as Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), 
then why should we condemn such understangings by current day people?"

That is a very speculative question which is impossible to answer. You 
presume that the things that Manifestation will see as symbolic and not literal 
are the same things you would like to understand symbolically and not literally. 
You are also assuming we are taking things literally, which may not at all be 
the case. I don't think future Manifestations are going to contradict the 
authoritative interpretations of the Guardian or Abdu'l-Baha and those are the 
*only* interpretations Baha'is are bound to accept. 

"Was a Christian who understood the Resurection of Christ to be 
symbolic wrong and apostate until 1844 (and also the second coming)?"

Actually most Christians who saw the Resurrection of Christ as symbolic in 
antiquity were heretics mostly because they denied Jesus had a physical body to 
begin with. 

"Is a Baha'i who

Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 12/28/2004 1:59:56 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  It was the official language of the Ottoman occupiers of the Holy Land, 
  and the "jailers" of Abdu'l Baha.I assume he had some fluency as did his 
  parents and grandparents.

Dear Scott, 

Abdu'l-Baha did sometimes write in Ottoman Turkish but I don't know that 

Shoghi Effendi knew it. Keep in mind that the Guardian was educated first 
in Catholic and then in American Presbyterian schools. These schools emphasized 
Arabic literature, but not Turkish. It is hard to say, though, inasmuch as 
Ottoman Turkish was no longer being used by the time Shoghi Effendi became 
Guardian.

warmest, Susan 
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Fwd: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted

-- Forwarded message --
From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:15:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Genocide was Re: Not Exhausted
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Do you have specific suggestions about how to provide context for
those verses which would let you describe them as something other than
genocide?

Peace

Gilberto

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:40:07 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto wrote:
 could you help me find a different way to read these passages?

 In the context of the larger picture, i.e., the Bible in its entirety
 including the New Testament; the picture that historical studies give us of
 the bronze-age world of the patriarchs; and the comparative realities of the
 Revelations of the Manifestations.

 Dave Lambert
 www.vintagerr.com


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--

My people are hydroponic


-- 


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Perennial Bab?

Sandra,

Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique to ourselves? My explanation in my own mind is that there is a spiritual reality that connects only through the most recent revelation in some mysterious way... but what is the outward _expression_ of this? (We are told that every spiritual reality is mirrored in the physical world).Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:  I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. If the revelation is really inspired, then morally sensitive people from the particular religious tradiition can still go back to the revelation and apply the truth in ways which are appropriate for our times. from`Abdu'l-Bahá:" . the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things -- that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, and WHICH LASTS and is established in ALL THE PROPHETIC CYCLES. It will NEVE!
 R BE
 ABROGATED, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen.These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, WILL NEVER BE ABOLISHED; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity WILL BE RENEWED in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God -- that is to say, the human virtues -- disappears, and only the form subsists. ..These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.The second !
 part of
 the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries -- this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is MODIFIED AND ALTERED IN EACH PROPHETIC CYCLE in accordance with the NECESSITIES of the times." (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 46) (my caps)I would agree that the spiritual attributes of which humans are capable are eternally "appropriate". However, the material (scientific) capabilities of humanity have advanced to such a degree (and, continue to do so) that it has become necessary to find solutions that will insure the continued survival of humanity, as inhabitants of one planet.lovingly, Sandra __You are subsc!
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?



G:
And so if you should me a religion which issuitable for the spiritual needs of people from different cultures andcivilizations from 622-or-so to 1844 then it should be universalenough to deal with human beings today.
J:
Unless there is something fundamentally different today (that started in the mid 1800's). Could this have anything to do with the exponential rise of technology and science?
		Do you Yahoo!? 
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Ron Stephens

Thank you very much for informing me about what languages the Central 
Figures understood and knew, in the real world. it is very helpful to 
me, because I did not know.

On Dec 28, 2004, at 2:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'll attempt to answer some of these (leaving opinion out of my reply 
til Susan makes comment)
 
1. The Bab and Baha`u'llah spoke Persian on a day-to-day basis. 
Neither one was particularly trained in Arabic though both showed a 
remarkable facility for their use of Arabic. Training young men in 
Arabic in those days (in Persian speaking countries - Farsi was widely 
spoken as a lignua franca in several dialects), was rather cursory - 
kind of like training young Jews to read enough Hebrew for their Bar 
Mitzvah's. One was supposed to be able to read the Qur'an, but 
training was perfunctory, especially for Baha`u'llah who was brought 
up as a noble where reading and writing were secondary to the ability 
to ride a horse and use a sword. The Bab was a merchant and had 
equally perfunctory training in Arabic.
The Bab created a very impressive linguistic style in Arabic, many 
found it hard to read, but many others found it fluent and beautiful. 
Baha`u'llah was favorably compared to many Arabic and Persian poets.
 
2) Abdu'l Baha spoke Arabic, Persian and Turkic with fluency. His 
world travels must have taught him some smatterings of English and 
French, but he always used interpreters in his discourse with 
westerners. Shoghi Effendi was trained in Arabic and Persian, Turkic, 
English and French, attending western schools in the Holy Land and 
eventually attending the best universities in England. As to his 
command of English, I have seen a course sylabus for teaching English 
literature written by non-Native speakers and Shoghi Effendi is used 
as a prime fine example of non-fiction and philosophy written in 
English by a non-native speaker and uses Joseph Conrad (a Pole) as its 
best example in the writing of fiction. Some find Shoghi Effendi's 
writings in English to be very complex, but it is hard to fault his 
use of the language by style and grammar usage of his time.
 
3) The Maiden is a symbol of Revelation for Baha`u'llah. The Bab saw 
the severed head of Husayn speak. Muhammed was visited by Gabriel. A 
dove appeared to symbolized divine Revelation for Jesus. Moses heard 
the burning bush speak. Are these actual physical apparitions? I doubt 
it. They are apparitions of the Will of God making itself physically 
manifest to the Manifestations.
 
4) I think prophecies are to be viewed on several levels 
simultaneously. To think of prophecies only on the concrete level is 
to limit one's understanding. Literalists of whatever sort are only 
trying to understand a small part of the Message of the Messengers. 
This is true whether studying the prophecies of Christ or the 
prophecies of Baha`u'llah.
 
5) The Manifestations are privy to the Will of God and His 
Omniscience, each and every One of them equally. However, part of 
Their obedience to the Will of God is that They revealed only what God 
bid Them reveal. Jesus was speaking the literal truth when He said: I 
have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?



G:
You said that if Ali had been accepted, Islam might have continued as a valid religion.
J:
I do not agree with this because even though the Baha'i faith is not 'to be followed by night', we are promised another revelation about 1000 years after 1844.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

Ronald,

Thanks for there questions. I have thought about many of these myself ! Ronald Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other similar concepts that I have difficulty with. I would sincerely like to better understand how you maintain these beliefs and incorporate them into a consistent world view. I hope you, and Brent Poirier and others on this list, can find time to comment on a few questions that I run into when I try to think through the consequences of such beliefs.1. What languages did the Central Figures speak and write and understand? For instance, I know that the Guardian translated some Writings of the earlier Central Figures into English; so I suppose He spoke English as well as Persian, Arabic, and possibly other languages that he learned at Cambridge?What languages were spoken by Abdul Baha, and what lan!
guage
were his books written in? Did He speak any English? Did He use any interpreters in His travels? Did Bahaullah speak any English or any language bedsides Persian and Arabic? Did the Bab speak Persian and Arabic, or any others? 2. The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to have been illiterate. Abraham had doubts. How else could His faith have any meaning? Surely someone Omniscient at Will could not have had doubts. In fact, Omniscience at will and Omnipotence at will, seem to me to make a mockery of the lives and struggles of all of the Prophets and Manifestations. If Abraham were Omniscient, He knew he would find a scapegoat and would not have to sacrifice Hi!
s son.
Truly I find this to rule out the real meaning of all Their lives, if they were Omniscient.Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn how? This seems beneath all dignity to me.The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in their adulthood. 3. Since it seems to me that the Bahai Faith is very unlikely to be able to grow enough to have any major impact any time soon, it seems that 1000 years is a short time. I do not think the Great Peace can come about in 1000 years. Is it therefore possible that the 1000 year Bahai period will be the beginning only, and that the full fulfillment will not occur until many Manifestations later; all in sort of the Cycle of Fulfillment as Brent Poirier mentioned recent!
ly, but
not within 1000 years; maybe 10,000 years or even 100,000?If a future Manifestation points out that some things Baha'is take literally should really only be understood symbolically (in other words, precisely as Baha'u'llah did in the Kitab i Iqan with respect to Christianity), then why should we condemn such understangings by current day people? Was a Christian who understood the Resurection of Christ to be symbolic wrong and apostate until 1844 (and also the second coming)? Is a Baha'i who believes that Infallibillity is symbolic, wrong and an apostate? How can you be so sure a future Manifestation won't make that precise point?4. Does Omniscience include the ability to know all about the future, as well as the present and the past? It seems to, since you believe in literal prophecies? How do you reconcile belief in Omniscience and Omnipotence (at will or otherwise) with the real world in a logically consistent manner? This completely baffles me. Yo!
u must
compartmentalize your mind and have one rational side to deal with the real, everyday world, and one irrational side to believe in Omniscience and other ideas. Pardon me for adding this paragraph, but this is the conclusion that I always come to when I try to accept Omniscience, Omnipotence and literal Infallibility. Since every Manifestation acted consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality They were Magicians above it all. Please dont just read this and respond only to my personal conclusions in the last paragraph, but rather I am really really interested in how you answer and think about the specific questions I ask in the paragraphs above.Ron
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Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

2004-12-28 Thread Ron Stephens

Dr. Susan Maneck wrote, and I respond below:
Dear Ron,
Before we start, let's keep a couple of things clear. As I understand 
it the term 'omniscient at will' applies *only* the Manifestation. That 
phrase occurs only in a letter written on the Guardian's behalf wherein 
he insists that *unlike* the Manifestation he is not omniscient at 
will. I don't know of any place in the Writings where the term 
Omnipotent at will occurs but inasmuch as the Manifestation reflects 
all the Names and Attributes of God one could infer this. But it would 
be just that, an inference. I don't think I've ever talked about this 
myself. Furthermore, I have always argued that it appears to be the 
case that much of the time the Manifestation does *not* will 
omniscience.

My reply: But Baha'is almost all the time assume that the Central 
Figures were omniscient at will. Also, how can an Interpreter interpret 
something said by Baha'u'llah, if Baha'u'llah was Omniscient and the 
Interpreter isn't? Isn't that backwards? What happens is, we then 
sometimes can and do safely disregard what Baha'u'llah actually said. 
For instance, if Abdul Baha said something that can be construed to 
deny the validity of evolution, then Baha'u'llah's statement that true 
religion must agree with science, is made null and void. We also 
completely ignore and disregard Baha'u'llah's explicit distinction 
between the Most Great Infallibility and other infallibility. (It must 
mean something! else why put it in our Most Holy Book?) Baha'u'llah's 
plain and explicit declaration that no one (that includes all other 
Central Figures and the Universal House of Justice, does it not) shares 
with Him in the Most Great Infallibility.

Others have answered your questions regarding the languages of certain 
figures. Just one minor correction. I didn't indicate that the 
Guardian's French was better than his English (although that is what he 
won prizes for at the Syrian Protestant College) only that this was the 
language in which he received his early education. And he always 
counted in that language. He went to Oxford, by the way, not Cambridge 
and he was already fluent in both English and French before he went 
there.

My reply: Yes, thanks to Scott for answering those questions.

The Quran and Bible describe the lives, to same extent anyway, of 
several Manifestations. The descriptions therein, to my mind, are 
inconsistent with an understanding of Them as Omniscient at Will and 
Omnipotent at Will. For instance, Muhammad was very careful to make 
sure that He was seen as a human being, not God. He is even said to 
have been illiterate.

Baha'u'llah sometimes referred to Himself as illiterate as well. ;-} 
And yes, all Manifestations have attested to their humanity. As for 
Abraham, I think historically speaking it is difficult to say anything 
at all about Abraham. We can't even say for sure that He existed. 
Stories are told about Him in both the Bible and the Qur'an to make 
specific points, but I wouldn't use them to speculate regarding His 
existential state.

My reply: I assume Abraham actually existed. Of course there is no 
objective proof for this, but I take the Manifestations' Word for this 
and the Holy Scriptures and Writings word for it. Why strain at a gnat 
and swallow a camel? This drives me crazy when you do it, often, Dr. 
Maneck. You accept wildly improbable notions like Omniscience at Will 
(even if only for the Manifestation) and the violation of physical laws 
(!!!), but you question the existence of Abraham.

Why did Bahaullah need to have a Maiden appear in the Prison to 
announce His mission if He already knew about it at birth? Did He as an 
enfant only pretend to at first be unable to talk, and then to learn 
how? This seems beneath all dignity to me.

I believe the Heavenly Maiden is the Divine Nature of Baha'u'llah 
Himself.

My reply: Fair enough, but Still why any announcement at all if He 
already knew it? Did He keep Himself in the dark (at Will, so to 
speak)? This seems crazy to me. Isn't it infinitely more likely that He 
did not *know* in advance, because He had no way of knowing until God 
announced it to Him, just like Abram, Moses, and Muhammad? (yes and 
certainly Jesus too but I know of no scriptural evidence in His case). 
Isn't this the essence of Occam's Razor?

The plain language of the Bible and Quran seem to tell us that most 
Manifestations did not know of their status until a specific point in 
their adulthood.

I expect that on some level that is true. I think what you are missing 
in this whole discussion is the understanding that Manifestations have 
*both* a human and a divine nature.

My reply: No, I understand that symbolically. I may not be able to 
describe it for you in words, better than it is already described by 
Baha'u'llah and Jesus Themselves. But I think you and many Baha'is do 
away 1005 with the human nature of Baha'u'llah and make him only a 
God, capable of anything and everything

Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters

Dear Ron, you wrote: Since every Manifestation acted 
consistently with natural law, and acted as if They were not 
omniscient and omnipotent, to believe that they were 
Omniscient and Omnipotent means believing that They lived 
their lives acting in a false way, in some cruel and sordid 
Joke pretending to be human in the real world when in reality 
They were Magicians above it all.

To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to express His 
Will through a human Mouthpiece, as were all His 
Manifestations, is to deny all Creation.

Quaff ye in My name, despite them that have disbelieved in 
*God, the Lord of Revelation*...
... How great is their blessedness that they have attained 
unto *what their Lord, the Omniscient, the All-Wise, hath 
willed*.  (Shoghi Effendi, [quoting Baha'u'llah] The Advent 
of Divine Justice, p. 76)

Humility and human weakness in the Manifestations are further 
evidences of the compelling power of the Lord, God's 
Omnipotence.

 I am he, O my Lord, that hath confessed to Thee the 
multitude of his evil doings, that hath acknowledged what no 
man hath acknowledged. I have made haste to attain unto the 
ocean of Thy forgiveness, and have sought shelter beneath the 
shadow of Thy most gracious favor. Grant, I beseech Thee, O 
Thou Who art the Everlasting King and the Sovereign Protector 
of all men, that I may be enabled to manifest that which shall 
cause the hearts and souls of men to soar in the limitless 
immensity of Thy love, and to commune with Thy Spirit. 
Strengthen me through the power of Thy sovereignty, that I may 
turn all created things towards the Day Spring of Thy 
Manifestation and the Source of Thy Revelation. Aid me, O my 
Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will, and to arise and 
serve Thee, for I cherish this earthly life for no other 
purpose than to compass the Tabernacle of Thy Revelation and 
the Seat of Thy Glory. Thou seest me, O my God, detached from 
all else but Thee, and humble and subservient to Thy Will. 
Deal with me as it beseemeth Thee, and as it befitteth Thy 
highness and great glory.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the 
Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 311)

Omniscient at will.. Whose will?  Baha'u'llah prayed: Aid me, 
O my Lord, to surrender myself wholly to Thy Will.

The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the 
representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day 
Spring of God's most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place 
of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as 
peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how 
can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and 
Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? 
Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, 
revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its 
meaning.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of 
Baha'u'llah, p. 69)

Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever 
their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and 
admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems 
of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of 
wisdom, while others believe them to be the *mouthpiece of God 
Himself*. How could such Souls have consented to surrender 
themselves unto their enemies if they believed all the worlds 
of God to have been reduced to this earthly life? Would they 
have willingly suffered such afflictions and torments as no 
man hath ever experienced or witnessed?  (Baha'u'llah, 
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 158)

LXXIV. Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God is 
endowed with such potency as can instill new life into every 
human frame, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth. All 
the wondrous works ye behold in this world have been 
manifested through the operation of His supreme and most 
exalted Will, His wondrous and inflexible Purpose. Through the 
mere revelation of the word Fashioner, issuing forth from 
His lips and proclaiming His attribute to mankind, such power 
is released as can generate, through successive ages, all the 
manifold arts which the hands of man can produce. This, 
verily, is a certain truth. No sooner is this resplendent word 
uttered, than its animating energies, stirring within all 
created things, give birth to the means and instruments 
whereby such arts can be produced and perfected. All the 
wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct 
consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days to 
come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have never 
heard before. Thus hath it been decreed in the Tablets of God, 
and none can comprehend it except them whose sight is sharp. 
In like manner, the moment the word expressing My attribute 
The Omniscient issueth forth from My mouth, every created 
thing will, according to its capacity and limitations, be 
invested with the power to unfold the knowledge of the most 
marvelous sciences, and will be empowered to

Re: Perennial Bab?