Statements on abortion - LOG
B. Abortion 1154. Abortion Merely to Prevent the Birth of an Unwanted Child is Strictly Forbidden in the Cause Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings. (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983) 1155. Surgical Operation and Abortion -- The soul Appears at Conception Abortion and surgical operations for the purpose of preventing the birth of unwanted children are forbidden in the Cause unless there are circumstances which justify such actions on medical grounds, in which case the decision, at present, is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the Teachings. Beyond this nothing has been found in the Writings concerning specific methods or procedures to be used in family planning. It should be pointed out, however, that the Teachings state that the soul appears at conception, and that therefore it would be improper to use such a method, the effect of which would be to produce an abortion after conception has taken place. (From letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, May 23, 1975) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 343) 1163. Husband and Wife to Decide How Many Children to Have There is nothing in the Sacred Writings specifically on the subjects of birth control, abortion or sterilization, but Bahá'u'lláh did state the primary purpose of marriage was the procreation of children, and it is to this primary purpose that the beloved Guardian alludes in many of the letters which are quoted in the compilation. This does not imply that a couple are obliged to have as many children as they can; the Guardian's secretary clearly stated on his behalf, in answer to an enquiry, that it was for the husband and wife to decide how many children they would have. A decision to have no children at all would vitiate the primary purpose of marriage unless, of course, there were some medical reason why such a decision would be required. You and your husband, therefore, should have no feeling that you are obliged to add to your already large family. This is a matter entirely for you to decide, and there are many methods of preventing conception, including self-discipline and restraint, to which you can have recourse. Sterilization, however, would be a more far-reaching action that any of these, with implications and results beyond those necessary for the immediate purpose of limiting the size of your family, and is not permissible in Bahá'í law except in rare instances where it is necessary for a medical reason. (From letter written in behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, January 28, 1977) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 346) It is clear that to have surgical operation merely to avoid unwanted children is not acceptable. However, as in the case of abortion, circumstances might exist in which such an operation would be justified. Individual believers called upon to make such a decision must be guided by the Bahá'í principles involved, the best professional advice available to them and their own consciences. In arriving at a decision the parties must also take into consideration the availability, reliability, and reversibility of all contraceptive methods. (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer.) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 347) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4-5 [ my letter 14] moving forward
The Book of Certitude starts with the strongest possible affirmation of unity NUMBER ONE**He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: I go away and come again unto you. Consider the sun. Were it to say now, I am the sun of yesterday, it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 21-22)** NUMBER TWO] It describes the Manifestations as the SUN. *** Thus, by the sun in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high. These Suns of Truth are the universal Manifestations of God in the worlds of His attributes and names, even as the visible sun that assisteth, as decreed by God, the true One, the Adored, in the development of all earthly things, such as the trees, the fruits, and colours thereof, the minerals of the earth, and all that may be witnessed in the world of creation, so do the divine Luminaries, by their loving care and educative influence, cause the trees of divine unity, the fruits of His oneness, the leaves of detachment, the blossoms of knowledge and certitude, and the myrtles of wisdom and utterance, to exist and be made manifest. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 33-34)*** NUMBER THREE] Thus, by the sun in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high. These Suns of Truth are the universal Manifestations of God in the worlds of His attributes and names, even as the visible sun that assisteth, as decreed by God, the true One, the Adored, in the development of all earthly things, such as the trees, the fruits, and colours thereof, the minerals of the earth, and all that may be witnessed in the world of creation, so do the divine Luminaries, by their loving care and educative influence, cause the trees of divine unity, the fruits of His oneness, the leaves of detachment, the blossoms of knowledge and certitude, and the myrtles of wisdom and utterance, to exist and be made manifest (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 33-34) NUMBER FOUR THE WILL OF GOD IS EMPHASIZED Were the eye of the heart to open, it would surely perceive that THE WORDS REVEALED FROM THE HEAVEN OF THE WILL OF GOD ARE AT ONE WITH, and the same as, the deeds that have emanated from the Kingdom of divine power (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 57-58) By this is meant that the divine Beauty will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God [az samAwAt MASHIYYAT E RABBANI] , and will appear in the form of the human temple. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 66-67) The term heaven denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. (Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 67) Dearest John and Gilberto [and others interested in this thread] I am physically away from any PC for three days and two days. Be good and upon you twain be my warmest most cordial greetings __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:18:34 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/25/2004 11:13:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But when Bahais make a big deal out say that holy war has been abrogated it gives the impression that somehow they are more peaceful, or closer to pacifism, etc. than other religions in principle. when there are significant exceptions which make that untrue. Dear Gilberto, Not necessarily all religions, just the one that immediately proceeded us. ;-} Gilberto: That's really not funny. And you certainly picked my comments out of context and ignored the main point. You still haven't convincingly explained or shown why there would be any morally significant difference between the holy wars carried out under the leadership of the prophet Muhammad or Imam Hussein and the analagous practices permitted in the Bahai. What practice is a part of proper holy war (not its distortions) which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts of collective security, righteous warfare, and hikmat. In particular, why would the application of hikmat by limited to exclude the possibility of holy war? Gilberto: But on further examination, it seems like the Bahai claims aren't significantly different. And the two main examples which come to mind are gender equality and the use of force. Susan: I think one only has to look at the relative status of women in these respective communities to see there is a very real difference indeed. Gilberto: If you only look and you don't think about why things are the way the are then one can often end up making lazy sorts of self-serving mistakes. I'm not saying you in particular, but I think it is tempting for alot of Bahais to uncritically assume, embrace, encourage and celebrate stereotypes about Muslims, and not look at changes in Muslim societies over time, not look at the effects of economics, education, politics, colonialism, not even think about Muslims in the West etc. in order to try to say that Islam is inferior. In your own paper, when the Bahais set up in Chicago, the American women already had more progressive ideas about gender equality than were allowed by the faith. They seemed to be chomping at the bit. And as far as use of force goes you still haven't given a straight answer. -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 02:13:25 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/25/2004 9:40:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [hypothetical situation of a small group of Bahai countries being attacked by a coaliion of fundamentalist countries on religious grounds] Gilberto: So would it be permissible for the Bahai country to fight back? Dear Gilberto, Susan: That would be a question for the House of Justice to answer. Gilberto: So whatever it means to blot out holy war it doesn't absolutely exclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defend themselves and fight non-Bahais. If the Bahai country fought back, would that be considered a holy war? No. So if a Muslim country is attacked, and defends itself, would THAT be considered a holy war? -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is the distinction you are making between "protecting" and "defending"? Dear Gilberto, "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I'm talking about what could be life and death matters. "And could "protecting" the faith include military action?" No. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "So whatever it means to "blot out holy war" it doesn't absolutelyexclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defendthemselves and fight non-Bahais." Dear Gilberto, They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for sure. Waging war in defense of our religionis forbidden, period. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:20:38 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Gilberto, They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for sure. Waging war in defense of our religionis forbidden, period. warmest, Susan__ Defending one's country when invaded isone thng to call it Holy War would be another thing entirely. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:16:25 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What practice is a part of proper holy war (not its distortions) which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts of collective security, righteous warfare, and hikmat. Susan: Where did the word 'righteous' come from? In Bahaullah and the New Era there is an entire chapter called Righteous Warfare http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/BNE/BNE-136.html In particular, why would the application of hikmat by limited to exclude the possibility of holy war? Because Baha'u'llah said so. In your own paper, you said In many cases hikmat calls for the apparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure the protection of the Faith. I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause Bahais to suspend the blotting out of holy war. It is silly to come up with hypothetical to suggest that Baha'i Teachings are no different than Islam in this respect. That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for it to be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under the dispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use of force under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think Ive heard a clear Bahai statement about the first case. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Defending" could be nothing more than apologetics. I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadithwhich states: ""The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjustruler." Dear Gilberto, Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still forbidden to kill in the name of our religion, and that is not true of Islam. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:19:31 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:44:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So whatever it means to blot out holy war it doesn't absolutely exclude the possibility that Bahais would take up arms to defend themselves and fight non-Bahais. Dear Gilberto, They cannot do so in defense of their religion. They might be able to do so in defense of their country under these circumstances, but I can't say for sure. Pretty much every discussion of physical jihad I've seen from a traditional/orthodox persepctive talks about it in the context of defending Muslim lands and lives, typically under a proper khalifah. So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between defending the religion and defending the country. And since you aren't certain whether the Bahai faith would permit a Bahai country to defend itself or not in the hypothetical scenario I described, then that would be a significant area concrete where you really can't say for sure that Bahai teachings are any more peaceful or closer to pacifism than Islamic teachings on jihad. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:43:07 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:29:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Defending could be nothing more than apologetics. I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith which states: The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust ruler. Dear Gilberto, Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still forbidden to kill in the name of our religion. You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your religion. You are allowed to engage in collective security in your religion. You are allowed to engage in righteous warfare in your religion. -Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:39 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in yourreligion. Islam speaks of war in defense of Islam as "Holy War." Baha`u'llah expressly forbids such a holy war. Collective security is about world peace, not the defense of the faith. We leave that to God. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
1903, not 1906. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/25/2004 1:20:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think I would define H.ikmat a trifle differently in a Bahá'í reference. Perhaps Susan or Khazeh could offer a better definition? Not promote or defend but sometimes to protect. For instance during the massacres of Yazd in 1906 Baha'is were compelled to celebrate the martyrdom of their fellow believers, opening their shops and putting out colored lights lest they too be identified and killed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where did the word 'righteous' come from? In "Bahaullah and the New Era" there is an entire chapter called"Righteous Warfare" Okay. The term 'righteous warfare' occurs nowhere in the Writings which is why I didn't recognize it. I prefer to use the term 'just war.' The concept which Abdu'l-Baha articulates is something which goes back at least as far as St. Augustine. "In your own paper, you said " In many cases hikmat calls for theapparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure theprotection of the Faith."" Yes, that would be an obvious not an apparent suspension. And because some Baha'i principles can be suspended, doesn't mean they all can. As I said, you are taking a hypothetical which has never occurred and trying to argue on that basis that we say the same thing as Islam. You could use hikmat to argue anything at all by that logic! "I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involvingviolence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could causeBahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war"." You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself with these word: "My imprisonment doeth Me no harm, neither the tribulations I suffer, nor the things that have befallen Me at the hands of My oppressors. That which harmeth Me is the conduct of those who, though they bear My name, yet commit that which maketh My heart and My pen to lament." I don't think any Baha'i would want to do this. "That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for itto be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under thedispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use offorce under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think I"ve heard aclear Bahai statement about the first case." Why do you need a 'Baha'i' statement in the first place? Don't you know what your Qur'an has to say on the subject? Do you need us to post the relevant quotations? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pretty much every discussion of physical jihad I've seen from atraditional/orthodox persepctive talks about it in the context ofdefending Muslim lands and lives Dear Gilberto, When it comes to defending lives and land Baha'is would not make a distinction between Baha'is or non-Baha'is, except we will not fight to defend ourselves against those who persecute us in the name of religion. But if a Jew were attacked for his religion, I might well defend him. "So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between"defending the religion" and "defending the country"." It was in your own statement. Your traditional juristsconsider it a holy war todefend those that share their own religion. It might well be a 'just' war for a Baha'i to defend those who are oppressed but we make no distinction on the basis of their religion except for our not defending ourselves such as you just made. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "collective security" in yourreligion. You are allowed to engage in "righteous warfare" in yourreligion." Dear Gilberto, There is a difference between a religion allowing or even calling for certain things and their being done in the name of religion. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:15:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1903, not 1906. Oops, sorry. I always associate with the Constitutional Revolution. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
JS: LOL, yeah, Abdu'l-Baha clarifies that it doesn't change, and at the same time, it actually DOES change in some ways (contradictory and 'having-the-cake-and-eating-it simultaneously', I realize). To prevent people from getting too attached to a name (i.e. "Jesus", "Qur'an", "Muhammad", "Torah", and "Baha'u'llah"), God renews the religions, its Name, its Book, its Main-man. G: I don't think that is a compelling reason. People can get "unattached"without converting. JS:An atheistcan also argue, using the same line of reasoning as yours: "It is not a'compelling reason'. People can be good without religion God period." Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:37:38 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JS: LOL, yeah, Abdu'l-Baha clarifies that it doesn't change, and at the same time, it actually DOES change in some ways (contradictory and 'having-the-cake-and-eating-it simultaneously', I realize). To prevent people from getting too attached to a name (i.e. Jesus, Qur'an, Muhammad, Torah, and Baha'u'llah), God renews the religions, its Name, its Book, its Main-man. G: I don't think that is a compelling reason. People can get unattached without converting. JS: An atheist can also argue, using the same line of reasoning as yours: It is not a 'compelling reason'. People can be good without religion God period. That's not what I'm saying. Nor does it follow from what I'm saying. You seem to be saying that it is a bad thing to be attached to the names of the manifestation. And so correct me if I'm wrong, but that would suggest that Bahais are not attached to Bahaullah in a bad way, but Muslims are attached to Muhammad. So firstly, I'm not sure why attachment should be such a bad thing. But assuming that it is, you haven't given a risen for why Muslims are more likely to be attached or why Bahais are more likely to be unattached -Gilberto Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Ruhi - a data point from Houston
I think Ruhi was God-sent for my 16 yr old son. He used to be a shy, introvert teenager with a wishy-washy knowledge of the Faith, and when he came to meetings almost never said anything or was not engaged in any other way. He went through all the Ruhi books and is now an enormously confident young man, involved with teaching children classes, public proclamations, a lot of personal teaching, etc. The other night he debated me about the station of Baha'u'llah and I think he had the better argument! So whatever the shortcomings of Ruhi may be, it has done wonders for my son, in ways that I could have never taught him. When I look around my community here in Houston, I see that Ruhi has given confidence and voice to a lot of Baha'is that were otherwise not engaged or too insecure in their knowledge and commitment to speak or act. Baha'i community used to be like a triangle. At the base you had a lot of inactive Baha'is and as you went up the triangle (towards the vertex), you have more active, knowledgeable, engaged Baha'is. What Ruhi has done is to tackle the base and the middle parts of the triangle and significantly expand and strengthen that segment of our population. As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to put gun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as I said it was God-sent for my son. Regards, Ahang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:30 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as Isaid it was God-sent for my son.Regards, Ahang. My younger daughter has blossomed with it as well. I have no doubt it does good, I also have no doubt it is not sufficient to itself for all. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:42:57 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:40:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where did the word 'righteous' come from? In Bahaullah and the New Era there is an entire chapter called Righteous Warfare Okay. The term 'righteous warfare' occurs nowhere in the Writings which is why I didn't recognize it. Gilberto: Why isn't Bahaullah and the New Era the writings? That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates on the concept in interesting ways as well. Susan: I prefer to use the term 'just war.' The concept which Abdu'l-Baha articulates is something which goes back at least as far as St. Augustine. Gilberto: Sure. Many civilizations, including Islamic civilization, have some principles or criteria which specificy in what sorts of situations warfare is justified and when it isn't. That's all military jihad is, from a certain point of view. Gilberto: In your own paper, you said In many cases hikmat calls for the apparent suspension of a Bahá'í principle in order to ensure the protection of the Faith. Susan: Yes, that would be an obvious not an apparent suspension. And because some Baha'i principles can be suspended, doesn't mean they all can. Gilberto: I didn't say that they all can be. But in your paper you wrote: Bahá'u'lláh regarded the application of any of his laws as contained in the Kitab-I-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of wisdom. As I said, you are taking a hypothetical which has never occurred and trying to argue on that basis that we say the same thing as Islam. You could use hikmat to argue anything at all by that logic! Gilberto: In no way shape or form, does Islam permit random Muslims to just go around killing innocent folks and calling it jihad. As far as I can tell, jihad only really makes sense in the context of a Muslim country. If we want to compare Islamic teachings on jihad (just war) and Bahai teachings on just war, it only makes sense that we make a comparison between a Muslim country and a Bahai country. If you guys don't have a country, that's not my fault. I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause Bahais to suspend the blotting out of holy war. You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself. And if that were the only thing that the Bahai central figures said about the uses of violence I think your case would be more convincing. But in other writings Abdul-Baha says things like: A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. [end quote] There is almost an Orwellian feel to this: Conquest can be a praiseworthy thing... war becomes the powerful basis of peace.. seeming wrath is mercy itself.. apparent tyranny the very substance of justice.. warfare the cornerstone of peace. How do I know what the limitations are on the righteous purpose which justifies these sorts of actions for Abdul-Baha? That statement has two sides to it which need to get looked at for it to be meaningful. What does God teach about the use of force under the dispensation of Muhammad. And what does God teach about the use of force under the dispensation of Bahaullah. I don't think Ive heard a clear Bahai statement about the first case. Susan: Why do you need a 'Baha'i' statement in the first place? Gilberto: To understand what you (or Bahaullah) is saying was blotted out, so that I can better evaluate whether the Bahai faith is saying anything different or better (or worse) Susan: Don't you know what your Qur'an has to say on the subject? Do you need us to post the relevant quotations? Gilberto: Feel free. I've read what my Quran says on the subject. But remember, it's your Quran too, at least that's what Bahais keep telling me. -Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates onthe concept in interesting ways as well. No, it is not. It is by a Baha`i named J. E. Esslemont and CONTAINS writings from the Central Figures of the Faith, but it is not scripture by any means. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:51:39 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Defending could be nothing more than apologetics. Gilberto: I could actually say the same about jihad then. There is a hadith which states: The best jihad is speaking the truth to an unjust ruler. Dear Gilberto, Which in Islam does not rule out actual warfare in the name of religion. If you want to say Baha'is wage the greater jihad, that is true. We are still forbidden to kill in the name of our religion. In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your religion. You are allowed to engage in collective security in your religion. You are allowed to engage in righteous warfare in your religion. Dear Gilberto, There is a difference between a religion allowing or even calling for certain things and their being done in the name of religion. If you are just arguing about the names that seems an odd distinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardless of whose name they've been done in. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:50:16 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 11:58:08 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So I honestly think it is difficult to clearly distinguish between defending the religion and defending the country. Susan: It was in your own statement. Your traditional jurists consider it a holy war to defend those that share their own religion. Gilberto: Firstly, I didn't call it a holy war. Secondly, the people being protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were members of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to begin with). So perhaps I should have been clearer but the state would have the obligation to protect the lives of all its citizens regardless of religion. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:11:11 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 12:00:39 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are allowed to apply capital punishment according to your religion. You are allowed to engage in collective security in your religion. You are allowed to engage in righteous warfare in your religion. Islam speaks of war in defense of Islam as Holy War. Where? Baha`u'llah expressly forbids such a holy war. What does it mean to go to war in defense of Islam which is seperate from defending a country from attack or saving lives? Do you understand what I'm asking? My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:25:52 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:21:10 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are just arguing about the names that seems an odd distinction to make. Actions are either right or wrong, regardless of whose name they've been done in. Peace Gilberto Here's the first couple paragraphs from the section of Baha`u'llah and the New Era. I think it makes clear the difference of war for religion and war to defend nations against invasion. I highlight in red one concluding statement. So are you saying that Christ already taught non-resistance. But then under Muhammad's dispensation the community progressed past it? Then the Bahai dispensation went backwards to what Christ taught? 1 Although Bahá'u'lláh, like Christ, counsels His follows as individuals and as a religious body to adopt an attitude of nonresistance and forgiveness toward their enemies, He teaches that it is the duty of the community to prevent injustice and oppression. If individuals are persecuted and injured it is wrong for a community to allow pillage and murder to continue unchecked within its borders. It is the duty of a good government to prevent wrongdoing and to punish offenders. [1] So also with the community of nations. If one nation oppresses or injures another, it is the duty of all other nations to unite to prevent such oppression. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes: -- It may happen that at a given time warlike and savage tribes may furiously attack the body politic with the intention of carrying on a wholesale slaughter of its members; under such a circumstance defense is necessary. 2 Hitherto the usual practice of mankind has been that if one nation attacked another, the rest of the nations of the world remained neutral, and accepted no responsibility in the matter unless their own interests were directly affected or threatened. The whole burden of defense was left to the nation attacked, however weak and helpless it might be. The teaching of Bahá'u'lláh reverses this position and throws the responsibility of defense not specially on the nation attacked, but on all the others, individually and collectively. As the whole of mankind is one community, an attack on any one nation is an attack on the community, and ought to be dealt with by the community. Were this doctrine generally recognized and acted on, any nation contemplating an aggression on another would know in advance that it would have to reckon with the opposition not of that other nation only, but of the whole of the rest of the world. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to deter even the boldest and most bellicose of nations. When a sufficiently strong league of peace-loving nations is established war will, there, become a thing of the past. During the period of transition from the old state of international anarchy to the new state of international solidarity aggressive wars will still be possible, and in these circumstances, military or other coercive action in the cause of international justice, unity and peace may be a positive duty. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes that in such case: -- 3 A conquest can be a praiseworthy thing, and there are times when war becomes the powerful basis of peace, and ruin the very means of reconstruction. If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace. Today, the task befitting great rulers is to establish universal peace, for in this lies the freedom of all peoples. -- The Secret of Divine Civilization, pp. 70-71. Regards, Scott__ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -
Re: Bahai jihad?
Secondly, the people being protected would also definitely include the non-Muslims who were members of the community. (That's what the jizya is for to begin with). So perhaps I should have been clearer but the state would have the obligation to protect the lives of all its citizens regardless of religion. You ought to be kidding! Jizya was a tax imposed on minority religions as a way to harass and contain them, and to ensure they were kept economically dirt poor! I have lived in many parts of the world with Muslim majority and in all those places the tyranny of Muslims towards the minority groups was most evident. Ahang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:33:49 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So are you saying that Christ already taught non-resistance. But thenunder Muhammad's dispensation the community progressed past it? Thenthe Bahai dispensation went backwards to what Christ taught? " Hitherto the usual practice of mankind has been that if one nation attacked another, the rest of the nations of the world remained neutral, and accepted no responsibility in the matter unless their own interests were directly affected or threatened. The whole burden of defense was left to the nation attacked, however weak and helpless it might be. The teaching of Bahá'u'lláh reverses this position and throws the responsibility of defense not specially on the nation attacked, but on all the others, individually and collectively. As the whole of mankind is one community, an attack on any one nation is an attack on the community, and ought to be dealt with by the community. Were this doctrine generally recognized and acted on, any nation contemplating an aggression on another would know in advance that it would have to reckon with the opposition not of that other nation only, but of the whole of the rest of the world. This knowledge alone would be sufficient to deter even the boldest and most bellicose of nations. When a sufficiently strong league of peace-loving nations is established war will, there, become a thing of the past. " __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:40:41 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What practice is a part of proper "holy war" (not its distortions)which would be absolutely ruled out by the Bahai concepts ofcollective security, "righteous" warfare, and hikmat.In particular, why would the application of hikmat by limited toexclude the possibility of "holy war"? Let's look for a clear example: Years ago Hindus were attacking mosques and vice versa in India. Here we have a case of one community attacking another for religous purposes. Both sides felt perfectly comnfortable taking up arms to defendthe faith. Baha`u'llah would not allow Baha`i's to take up arms in defense from an attack based on religious grounds. Note there is another difference here. No political state is involved. It is NOT a case of one nation invading another. THe international peace described by Baha`u'llah is nations coming together to find ways to support one another in the face of bloody agression. Nations are composed of believers of many faiths in most instances. Here clearly one nation invades another and religious reasons are not the root cause - the root cause is belligerence and a desire to acheive nationalistic goals. Under the guidance of Baha`u'llah the aggressing nation is committing a crime against peace and ALL the nations are required to come to the aid of the nation invaded. Why? Because such a common defense would deter warfare after the first time it was successfully invoked. Aggressors would realize there is no profit in aggression. This has very little to do with religion. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:04:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for me, I sat and suffered through one session of Ruhi and was ready to putgun to my head after that. So it may not be for an old dog like me, but as Isaid it was God-sent for my son. Dear Ahang, The same thing is true for me and my son, on both counts. Only I suffered through the *entire* Book One. I took Neil to the Holy Land with me in December of 2000. Mr. Furutan had quite a talk with him about the Covenant and the necessity of reading the Writings every morning and evening. Last year when I had made some disparagingly commentabout Ruhi,Neil said to me, "Mom,I've been reading theWritings ever since that meeting with Mr. Furutan but the Writings are hard to understand. Ruhi helps." Neil had been reading the Writings fluently at Feast since he was eight years old. It never occurred to me that he might not understand what he was reading. I must say, Neil made the best argument for Ruhi I've heard thus far. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:17:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why isn't "Bahaullah and the New Era" "the writings"? Dear Gilberto, By "Writings" I mean our scriptures; what we consider the Word of God. Baha'u'llah and the New Era is just a piece of secondary literature. "That section also quotes a passage from Abdul-Baha which elaborates onthe concept in interesting ways as well." I think it is elaborating the concept of a 'just war' but as I said, that isn't the same as a holy war. "I didn't say that they all can be. But in your paper you wrote:"Bahá'u'lláh regarded the application of any of his laws as containedin the Kitab-I-Aqdas as conditional upon the exercise of wisdom."" The prohibition against jihad is all over the Baha'i Writings, not just in the Aqdas. "In no way shape or form, does Islam permit random Muslims to just goaround killing innocent folks and calling it "jihad". " Did anyone imply it did? "As far as I cantell, jihad only really makes sense in the context of a Muslimcountry." Jihads are also justified to defend Muslims living in the Daru'l-Harb as I'm sure you know, and bring their country into the Daru'l-Islam. They are not just waged for the purpose of protecting the Daru'l-Islam. "I find it easy to believe that life or death situations involving violence and persecution might be the kind of thing which could cause Bahais to suspend the "blotting out of holy war"." You may find it easy but the only time when Baha'is actually did this their actions were strongly condemned by Baha'u'llah Himself. "There is almost an Orwellian feel to this:"Conquest can be a praiseworthy thing... war becomes the powerfulbasis of peace.. seeming wrath is mercy itself.. apparent tyranny thevery substance of justice.. warfare the cornerstone of peace."" Sure, play with the ellipses and you can make almost anything look sinister. "How do I know what the limitations are on the "righteous purpose"which justifies these sorts of actions for Abdul-Baha?" Doesn't He lay that out fairly clearly? He is saying you can defend your country against attack or put down internal rebellion. To understand what you (or Bahaullah) is saying was blotted out, sothat I can better evaluate whether the Bahai faith is saying anythingdifferent or better (or worse) Why don't you put up all the quotes from the Qur'an that deal with holy war, Gilberto. I think they pretty much all apply, but let's see them all." I've read what "my" Quran says on the subject." Okay, why don't you post them then. I'll find any that you leave out. ;-} warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 2:20:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you are just arguing about the "names" that seems an odddistinction to make. I am not at all arguing about names and I have a difficult time figuring out why you find this so hard to grasp. Islam has both jihad and hudud penalities. They are in no way regarded as the same thing. That they can both result in death is really not relevant. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Statements on abortion - LOG
Sandra, They are all somewhat similar to the statement I had read, but the one I am talking about is more specific. It precisely says that a woman must make the decision in consultation with her physician. I recall that a friend of mine, after reading it, wondered whether men were given any rights in this matter. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Gilberto, At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: That's really not funny. By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto,At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:That's really not funny.By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED]"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." Abbie Hoffman __You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page Try My Yahoo! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4-5 [ my letter 14] moving forward
Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Didn't Mark say something earlier which would imply that the followers of Meher Baba have a somewhat stronger sense of unity. No, what I said was that the followers of Meher Baba believe that Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Meher Baba, etc. are reincarnations of the same soul. He said that the avatars have one soul, and not many distinct souls as in the Bahai faith. Yes. And if we are talking about unity in the sense of tawhid, isn't Islam's rejection of anything which seems like polytheism, or deification of a human being in some ways more thorough than the Bahai faith's attitude which tries to reconcile itself to Hinduism or the deity of Christ? I don't think that Baha'u'llah was trying to reconcile the Baha'i Faith with Hinduism (although He did point out how various views, including Hindu advaitism, are valid from certain perspectives). He was giving His view of prophetology which, from a Baha'i perspective, is a Revelation from God. And finally (although this isn't held by all Muslims) what is a stronger affirmation of wahdat al-wujud, the philosophical position of Ibn al-Arabi which sometimes gets mistaken for polytheism? It is usually mistaken for pantheism (or perhaps, more accurately, panentheism), not polytheism. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims? Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were defensive actions against attacks by Muslims. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims?Well, all of the battles, including the one at Shaykh Tabarsi, were defensive actions against attacks by Muslims. JS: Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah? I'll answer it myself... No.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah? I'll answer it myself... No. I agree. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:17:23 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:24 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: That's really not funny. By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam. My mistake. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:50:11 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 01:48 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: And so correct me if I'm wrong, but that would suggest that Bahais are not attached to Bahaullah in a bad way, but Muslims are attached to Muhammad. Whether the attachment is to the Soul and Spirit of the Prophet or to His historical personality can probably be evaluated by whether people are *willing* to accept subsequent Prophets. Gilberto: Or previous ones. I mean, I'm sure that there are many Bahais, especially in the West, who for whatever reason accept Bahaullah because they like his wrapper so to speak, but are actually only reluctantly and superficially accepting Muhammad, just because he is part of the whole Bahai package. -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
Dear Friends, Can someone please point out where any type of warfare is condoned? It occurs to this mind that many statements have been made opposing war, such as In the new age Baha'o'llah has prohibited war. (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 45) Every war is against the good pleasure of the Lord of mankind, for man is the edifice of God and war destroys the divine edifice. (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 85) Had the principles of unity, taught by the Christ, remained in the hearts, men would have refrained from war. (Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 100) Now, in such a shining age when the realities have become manifest and the mysteries of the universe are disclosed, the morn of Truth has dawned and the world is illuminated - is it allowable that such dreadful war should occur to throw the world of humanity into manifest loss? No, by God! (Abdu'l-Baha, Letter to Martha Root) A Supreme Tribunal shall be elected by the peoples and governments of every nation, where members from each country and government shall assemble in unity. All disputes shall be brought before this Court, its mission being to prevent war. (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 132) The following quote is often used to suggest that there is such thing as a just war: The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure. (Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 64) But to this mind, as strong as that quote is (with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government), it does not specifically mention war. Is it not possible that jointly enforced sanctions could be intended? Or are there some other quotations that this one has overlooked that specifically sanction war? Does arise equate to war against.? James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4-5 [ my letter 14] moving forward
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:28:14 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 09:51 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Didn't Mark say something earlier which would imply that the followers of Meher Baba have a somewhat stronger sense of unity. No, what I said was that the followers of Meher Baba believe that Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Meher Baba, etc. are reincarnations of the same soul. He said that the avatars have one soul, and not many distinct souls as in the Bahai faith. Yes. Gilberto: I don't see what you didn't like about how I characterized what you said. Seeing the souls of the various figures as one instead of many is exactly what I had in mind by stronger sense of unity. Gilberto: And if we are talking about unity in the sense of tawhid, isn't Islam's rejection of anything which seems like polytheism, or deification of a human being in some ways more thorough than the Bahai faith's attitude which tries to reconcile itself to Hinduism or the deity of Christ? Mark: I don't think that Baha'u'llah was trying to reconcile the Baha'i Faith with Hinduism (although He did point out how various views, including Hindu advaitism, are valid from certain perspectives). Gilberto: What is the difference between recognizing Krishna as a Manifestation of God and pointing out at least the partial validity of advaitism and trying to reconcile with Hinduism? And finally (although this isn't held by all Muslims) what is a stronger affirmation of wahdat al-wujud, the philosophical position of Ibn al-Arabi which sometimes gets mistaken for polytheism? It is usually mistaken for pantheism (or perhaps, more accurately, panentheism), not polytheism. Yes, my brain was misfiring. I had meant to say was: What is a stronger affirmation of unity than wahdat-al-wujud, the philosophical position of Ibn al-Arabi which sometimes gets mistaken for pantheism? Peace Gilberto Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
James, At 05:41 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Can someone please point out where any type of warfare is condoned? If, for example, a high-minded sovereign marshals his troops to block the onset of the insurgent and the aggressor, or again, if he takes the field and distinguishes himself in a struggle to unify a divided state and people, if, in brief, he is waging war for a righteous purpose, then this seeming wrath is mercy itself, and this apparent tyranny the very substance of justice and this warfare the cornerstone of peace. -- `Abdu'l-Baha: Secret of Divine Civilization, p.71 This nation, moreover, may well claim to have, as a result of its effective participation in both the first and second world wars, redressed the balance, saved mankind the horrors of devastation and bloodshed involved in the prolongation of hostilities, and decisively contributed, in the course of the latter conflict, to the overthrow of the exponents of ideologies fundamentally at variance with the universal tenets of our Faith. -- Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p.35 Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile states, the principle of collective action in defence of peace gradually took on the form of military interventions such as that of the Gulf War, in which compliance with Security Council resolutions was imposed by force on aggressor factions and states. - Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p.72 Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan page 4-5 [ my letter 14] moving forward
Hi, Gilberto, At 05:43 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: I don't see what you didn't like about how I characterized what you said. Seeing the souls of the various figures as one instead of many is exactly what I had in mind by stronger sense of unity. Unity, in the sense of tawhid, is the prerogative of God. The Prophets, IMO, manifest that Unity. They do not incarnate, or share in, it. Aside from tawhid, I don't understand how Meher Baba's view reflects a stronger sense of unity. Unity, in my view, requires at least two particulars. What would it mean to say that I am united with myself? I suppose one could justify the concept based on some notion of cognitive consonance, or an avoidance of cognitive dissonance, but it would not reflect my own understanding of unity. I wrote: I don't think that Baha'u'llah was trying to reconcile the Baha'i Faith with Hinduism (although He did point out how various views, including Hindu advaitism, are valid from certain perspectives). You replied: What is the difference between recognizing Krishna as a Manifestation of God and pointing out at least the partial validity of advaitism and trying to reconcile with Hinduism? Reconciliation, as I meant it, would be syncretism, not comparison. I wrote: It [the view expressed by ibn al-Arabi] is usually mistaken for pantheism (or perhaps, more accurately, panentheism), not polytheism. You replied: Yes, my brain was misfiring. I had meant to say was: What is a stronger affirmation of unity than wahdat-al-wujud, the philosophical position of Ibn al-Arabi which sometimes gets mistaken for pantheism? It is easy to have unity when all things are consubstantial with God. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:12:59 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beginning with the policing of agreements worked out between hostile states, the principle of collective action in defence of peace gradually took on the form of military interventions such as that of the Gulf War, in which compliance with Security Council resolutions was imposed by force on aggressor factions and states. - Universal House of Justice, Century of Light, p.72 So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are there other official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf War II? What do they say? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:55:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: would certainlyadmit that it has the potential to be abused (virtually all rules do)but jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think itis necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should takeit up with the author. Dear Gilberto, I should forewarn, Ahang here descends from a Zoroastrian family who could tell you a great deal about how the jizya was imposed in practice. The biggest barrier for Zoroastrians in accepting the Baha'i Faith was in having to accept the prophethood of Muhammad as well. *However*, Ahang, you should know that the Sasanians imposed this poll tax long before Muslims did. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:48:18 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I once knew someone who told me he only accepted Muhammad on the authority of Baha'u'llah. Dear Mark, I think most of us did at first. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 6:46:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are thereother official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf WarII? Dear Gilberto, That's the only one and it wasn't the House itself which wrote that document. They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but that it represented the kind of collective security which the world needed to move towards. In that sense, it is in startling contrast to this latest invasion of Iraq. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Planned obsolscence
"jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think itis necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should takeit up with the author" Yes, this work of theAuthor is well beyond the expiry date. Planned obsolescence (also built-in obsolescence (UK)) is the conscious decision on the part ofGod to produce aReligion that will become obsolete in a defined time frame. Planned obsolescence has great benefits forGod in that it meansthat manwillbelieve in His Manifestation repeatedly, asHis oldone is no longer functional or desirable due to human mis-interpretation, dogma, corruption, and general day-to-day involvement. There is, however, the potential human backlash that become aware of such obsolesence; suchhumans can shed their loyalty to God andpledge allegiance to another God that caters to their want of a more durable religion or Manifestation. Planned obsolescence was developed in the1000s B.C.when the humanmindhad opened every minute aspect of theManifestations teachingsto exacting analysis and interpretation albeit imperfect human analysis and interpretation. Human estimates of planned obsolescence can influence God's decisions aboutreligious Revelation;there is littledivine reason to make a religionthat lasts longer than anyone is expected to use it. Therefore God can use themost humble Represetativethat satisfyreligious lifetime projections. Such decisions are part of a broader discipline known as value of the Revelation of the Manifestation. Expiry dates All aspects of religion have expiry dates long before they become fully corrupted or unusable. Prayer laws, fasting laws, and laws related to moral conduct ethical behavior have dates that if exceeded will not be hazardous. Other aspects of religion also err greatly on the side of caution meaning that vast amounts of perfectly goodaspects of the religionare thrown out eachtime a new Manifestation comes. (Based on Wikipedia's description) Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
Dear James, A number of your quotations are taken from Divine Philosophy which more or less falls into the category of pilgrim's notes. But I think your understanding is both right and wrong. The very purpose of the Baha'i Faith is to bring about the unity of humanity and by it, an end to war. But that doesn't mean that we don't believe any country has a right to defend itself when attacked. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:18:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By the religion which immediately preceded the Baha'i Faith, I think that Susan had in mind the Babi Faith, not Islam.My mistake. Actually, I was thinking of both. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 5:09:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now, for clarification, can you tell us, if the Baha'is were trapped at Shaykh Tabarsi today, and Muslims attacked them, would the Baha'is be allowed to fight back, according to the Law of Baha'u'llah? No. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:47:46 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 05:36 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Or previous ones. I mean, I'm sure that there are many Bahais, especially in the West, who for whatever reason accept Bahaullah because they like his wrapper so to speak, but are actually only reluctantly and superficially accepting Muhammad, just because he is part of the whole Bahai package. I once knew someone who told me he only accepted Muhammad on the authority of Baha'u'llah. Yes, me too. So what does that mean? I mean, I really don't know enough about Bahaullah to either like or dislike him. I'm comfortable keeping my discussions here on the level of beliefs and practices for the moment. But a Bahai who has looked at the Quran and actually dislikes parts of its teachings and resents its commandments seems closer than me to rejecting the light if the Bahai faith were true. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/21/2005 4:26:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did the Bab wage Jihad against all the non-believers or just against Muslims? The Bab never waged jihad. His followers fought in His absence when He was imprisoned. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Statements on abortion - LOG
In a message dated 1/21/2005 4:08:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It precisely says that a woman must make the decision in consultation with her physician. I recall that a friend of mine, after reading it, wondered whether men were given any rights in this matter. I'm pretty sure the statement you have in mind is from the House, not the Guardian, Mark. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
Gilberto, At 06:45 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: So does the UHJ believe the first Gulf War was justified? Are there other official Bahai statements related to Gulf War I, and Gulf War II? What do they say? The House of Justice made an earlier statement in which it called the Gulf War just. I haven't seen any similar comments about the Iraq War, and I personally doubt that there will be any. It would be difficult to call the Iraq War collective security. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
In a message dated 1/21/2005 3:32:19 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It sparks a fire in youth in my estimation, and those who are not well deepened. Those who spent years doing it the old way mostly find it redundant and repetitive as well as having heard it before. Exactly. And we do need to keep in mind that Ruhi wasn't designed for us, it was designed to consolidate mass enrollments. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
Hi, Susan, At 06:46 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: I think most of us did at first. Yes, but what I meant is that this particular person said that he *only* accepted Muhammad on Baha'u'llah's authority. He despised Islam, the Qur'an, etc. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
In a message dated 12/26/2004 9:40:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That message was, of course, written almost 4 1/2 years ago. At that time, I would have agreed with Terry. (In fact, we discussed it.) I don't know what his views are now. I'm wondering about that myself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
In a message dated 12/26/2004 9:40:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That message was, of course, written almost 4 1/2 years ago. At that time, I would have agreed with Terry. (In fact, we discussed it.) I don't know what his views are now. Dear Mark, As I recall Terry's attraction to perennnialism is that it provided a needed correction to triumphalism in the Baha'i community. I suspect if he were acquianted with Vahid Brown's research on this question he would change his mind. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
Hi, Susan, At 06:49 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: They weren't exactly saying that the Gulf War was justified, but that it represented the kind of collective security which the world needed to move towards. In an earlier message, the House of Justice did refer to the Gulf War as just. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/26/2004 1:02:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And is that really how the rule is stated? So you can get an abortion if your doctor says its okay? Or do they have to be medically necessary? I"t is left up to the individual to make a moral choice. The Baha`i Faith is one in which the individual cannot abrogate his responsibilities to make choices. The result of the choice is a matter between the individual and God." Dear Scott, What the Universal House of Justice has stated is that they are leaving it to the woman and her doctor *at this time.* That is not an articulation of a principle. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Planned obsolscence
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:51:00 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jizya actually is ordained in the Quran, so if you really think it is necessarily a form of harrassment and tyranny then you should take it up with the author Yes, this work of the Author is well beyond the expiry date. You don't need to say it. I realized a very long time ago that Bahais think of previous religions as spoiled milk. Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Kitab-i-Iqan pp 4-5 Qur'an 3:85
Gilberto, At 06:55 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Yes, me too. So what does that mean? I mean, I really don't know enough about Bahaullah to either like or dislike him. I'm comfortable keeping my discussions here on the level of beliefs and practices for the moment. But a Bahai who has looked at the Quran and actually dislikes parts of its teachings and resents its commandments seems closer than me to rejecting the light if the Bahai faith were true. IMHO, acceptance or rejection has more to do with one's response to the latest Prophet. I mean, I could say the same thing about Buddhism as this fellow said about Islam. Before I was a Baha'i, the Buddhisms and the Buddhist sutras I read never appealed to me. (They still don't appeal to me.) Islam also did not appeal to me before I became a Baha'i. However, what turned me off is the concept of finality, not the Qur'an. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Planned obsolscence
In a message dated 1/21/2005 7:16:12 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You don't need to say it. I realized a very long time ago that Bahaisthink of previous religions as spoiled milk.PeaceGilberto Please do not lump us in a group like that. Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
Susan, At 06:55 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: A controversial question. Raising a black flag in Khurasan was bound to provoke violence. That's how the rebellion against the Umayyad Dynasty was launched, after all. I guess it would depend on whether one interprets it as a provocation or as taking a stand. I suppose one could interpret it both ways. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Statements on abortion - LOG
Susan, At 06:57 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: I'm pretty sure the statement you have in mind is from the House, not the Guardian, Mark. I think you are right, but, either way, I wish I could find it. ;-) Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Gilberto, At 07:11 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Which research? Here is some of it: http://www.salsabil.org/papers/maryami.htm Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Planned obsolscence
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:17:20 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 7:16:12 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You don't need to say it. I realized a very long time ago that Bahais think of previous religions as spoiled milk. Peace Gilberto Please do not lump us in a group like that. Sorry. I was being short-tempered. -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Planned obsolscence
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:17:20 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: In a message dated 1/21/2005 7:16:12 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You don't need to say it. I realized a very long time ago that Bahais think of previous religions as spoiled milk. Peace Gilberto Please do not lump us in a group like that.Sorry. I was being short-tempered.-Gilberto J: And mine was maybe a bad attempt at humor. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Planned obsolscence
In a message dated 1/21/2005 9:09:16 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please do not lump us in a group like that.Sorry. I was being short-tempered.-Gilberto Its easy to get short-tempered in an all written forum. We cannot see each other's faces, judge each other's body language and make use of all the non-verbal language that we use day to day. I did not agree with the original poster, I just wanted you to know that not all of us feel any particular way - just like muslims, or christians, or anybody. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:29:15 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Susan, At 07:03 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: I suspect if he were acquianted with Vahid Brown's research on this question he would change his mind. Yes, all versions of perennialism I am familiar with (Huxley's, Guenon's, Hixon's, Wilber's etc.) are all triumphalistic - in the sense that they want to universalize and impose a particular perspective on various traditions. I see a similar triumphalism in Baha'is who try to find a Western concept of God in the Buddhist sutras. Do you think the triumphalism is an intrinsic consequence of any particular ideology or is it just an attitude which may or may not be present in a person. Peace Gilberto Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Do you think the triumphalism is an intrinsic consequence of any particular ideology or is it just an attitude which may or may not be present in a person. I think there are some ideologies which feed that attitude. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
Susan: "Exactly. And we do need to keep in mind that Ruhi wasn't designed for us, it was designed to consolidate mass enrollments." Dear Susan, Why then are we encouraged and sometimes sort of forced to enroll for these courses? Is it just to increase statistics? Regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Ruhi - a data point from Houston
Why then are we encouraged and sometimes sort of forced to enroll for these courses? Is it just to increase statistics? Nope. So we can tutor them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Gilberto, At 09:19 PM 1/21/2005, you wrote: Do you think the triumphalism is an intrinsic consequence of any particular ideology or is it just an attitude which may or may not be present in a person. All the perennialisms I have observed are deductive systems. They begin with certain first principles and read them into various religious and spiritual systems. That is what I meant by triumphalist. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Which research? Dear Gilberto, Vahid's done some interesting stuff on the background of perennial thought which I think we have discussed before. However, Mark Sedgwick someone beat him to the punch as far getting this something published: http://www.aucegypt.edu/faculty/sedgwick/trad/book.htm warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Bahai jihad?
So where did the document come from? Dear Gilberto, It comes from the World Centre. It is just that the House didn't write it directly. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad?
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:50:03 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So where did the document come from? Dear Gilberto, It comes from the World Centre. It is just that the House didn't write it directly. So does that mean it is infallibly true and authoritative? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
