Re: Century of Light
Firouz,
At 05:34 AM 1/23/2005, you wrote:
I thought the House is infallible on matters of legislation. Are you saying
they are infallible on every decision they make?
If I might throw in my 2¢ here. To my understanding, the infallibility of the
House of Justice refers to its legislative decisions based on an elucidation of
the Text. Personally, I understand legislation as dealing, broadly, with
matters of praxis.
Yesterday I suggested that the approval of documents, such as _Century of
Light_, might not fall under the legislative magisterium of the House of
Justice. I would also question whether certain of its own papers and letters,
those which do not focus on praxis, would be included in its legislative
authority.
The House of Justice can clearly do what it wants. However, the *guarantees* of
protection ('ismat/ma'sum) against impurity or sinning (failing to conform to
the Will of God) may be absent when it exceeds its legislative magisterium.
Shoghi Effendi himself distinguished between statements which *clearly* came
under divine protection. In summarizing various comments made by the Guardian
over the years, the Universal House of Justice, in a letter dealing with errors
in _God Passes By_, wrote:
The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related
strictly to the Cause and interpretations of the Teachings; he is not an
infallible authority on other subjects, such as economics, science, etc.
http://bahai-library.com/uhj/infallibility.guardian.html
Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman
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Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Mark, are you refering to this meaing of historicism? Most recently, Historicism has been used by post-modernist thinkers to describe the view that there is no absolute truth about deep philosophical questions that should stand for all time. I just realized that the definition you provided for historicism was basically the same as the one I posted. Sorry. I rushed through writing that message. Eudora downloaded it just before I needed to head over to a friend's place. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Century of Light
In a message dated 1/23/2005 5:36:54 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I thought the House is infallible on matters of legislation. Are you saying they are infallible on every decision they make? Dear Firouz, No, I didn't say that either. I just said there is no exhaustive statement (at least an authoritative one) which states what the limits of their infallibility is. We have this for the Guardian, but not for the House. There is of course, Udo Schaefer's article, but that is just his personal opinion. http://bahai-library.com/articles/schaefer.infallibility.html I have my own personal opinion as well, which differs somewhat from Schaefer's, but I figured Gilberto was asking for something authoritative. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/28/2004 7:39:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: I think that if God is really speaking and a religion is worth its salt, it doesn't need to be replaced by another in order to progress. Then there should have been no more revelations after Adam. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:03:13 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authenticChristianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions ornever left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (likeEbionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslimperspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the truefollowers of Jesus. Dear Gilberto, I think the above is a good example of perennialist triumphalism. The perenialist decides what theoriginal religion was or wasn't, despitewhat that religionmay say about itself. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:17:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At least in terms of islamic law,you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understandingthe principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realitiesof contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changesin technology or social organization in mind which you think Islamwould have trouble keeping up with. Most 'ulama would not suggest that you can change laws, particularly not hudud laws which are perhaps the most problematic. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:18:12 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:17:56 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At least in terms of islamic law, you have living scholars who can arrive at rulings by understanding the principles of the Quran and sunnah and understanding the realities of contemporary life. I'm not sure if you have any particular changes in technology or social organization in mind which you think Islam would have trouble keeping up with. Most 'ulama would not suggest that you can change laws, particularly not hudud laws which are perhaps the most problematic. But it is possible to set up a society in such a way that keeping the law is easy and structure legal-police-justice system such it would only rarely meet out punishments. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And since honest-to-goodness real live Muslim actually do believe thatthe Quran is applicable today then you are actually calling Islam asbased in the Quran "brutal". If the Shariah is enforced in a way to appear brutal to the present-day conscience, then to the present-day conscience judges it to be brutal. As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and places SOCIAL laws BE another time and place's social laws that problems arise. My present-day conscience considers maiming to be brutal - and to fall under the aegis of a criminal punishment NOT appropriate to this time and place. If the Shariah were replaced by the Baha`i form of jurisprudence, I would not consider it inappropriate to this time and place. I simply don't know how to make it plainer. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't believe that the actual nature of what is "brutal" depends onwhat date it is. It may depend on the actual realities of a givensituation but those don't just depend abstractly on the date. Forexample, if you are caught on a desserted island, or you are strandedon a mountain top with a group of people and no food, or if you arestuck on a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean, it is conceivable thatcertain actions might be appropriate for those situations which mightnot be appropriate in different conditions. But the mere passage oftime isn't a factor which should cause those definitions of moralityor brutality to change. It is not the simple passage of time it is the change in social interactions and norms that make it inappropriate. The Baha`i Faith offers a mechanism for understanding why social laws change. The Qur'an does not. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:45:25 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I think that it is possible to outline certain featureswhich constitute a "good government" but this should be independentfrom a particular ideology. Which is, of course, a product of western secular thought and practice. A "Divine government" is possible when society understands and accepts that the Will of God is unrolled to create a divine civilization, and that a divine civilization will create changes in society tat we do not begin to comprehend, and that those changes will be realized over the course of centuries and millenia. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Century of Light
In a message dated 1/23/2005 5:36:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dear Susan, I thought the House is infallible on matters of legislation. Are you saying they are infallible on every decision they make? Best regards, Firouz I think she was saying there is no "exhaustive statement". Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:16:48 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/28/2004 8:03:13 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true followers of Jesus. Dear Gilberto, I think the above is a good example of perennialist triumphalism. The perenialist decides what the original religion was or wasn't, despite what that religion may say about itself. That's EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what the Bahais do to Muslims. Despite what Muslims may say, Bahais tell Muslims what Seal of the Prophets means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how the second coming of Christ is supposed to happen. etc. -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west (so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how exactly is that whole fining process a deterrent? JS: Doubling is the key word here. If the fine for adultery is $100, it will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd time, $800 4th time, $1600 5th, $3200 6th, $6400 7th, $12800 8th, $25600 9th, $51200 10th, $102,400 11th. I don't think I would be able to affort to do it more than 7 times. Wow, do you have a spouse who would let you cheat on her 7 times? My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/23/2005 11:22:28 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what the Bahais do to Muslims.Despite what Muslims may say, Bahais tell Muslims what "Seal of theProphets" means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how thesecond coming of Christ is supposed to happen. etc.-Gilberto Within the paradigm of Baha`u'llah, of course, they are correct. Only time and Judgement before God will tell us how much each was right and wrong. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:45:11 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And since honest-to-goodness real live Muslim actually do believe that the Quran is applicable today then you are actually calling Islam as based in the Quran brutal. Scott: If the Shariah is enforced in a way to appear brutal to the present-day conscience, then to the present-day conscience judges it to be brutal. Gilberto: But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience is actually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determine what the conscience is saying to us? I mean, if everyone could just listen to their conscience, and the conscience was reliable then we wouldn't have any real need for religion. Part of the problem is that people's conscience aren't always the most reliable. Even from a Bahai perspective, aren't there some very commonly-held moral opinions, even in the West which are just wrong? So why should popular conscience be the ultimate arbiter? As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and places SOCIAL laws BE another time and place's social laws that problems arise. What are the specific problems? My present-day conscience considers maiming to be brutal - My present-day conscience tells me that burning people alive is brutal. I also think in the West there are many present-day consciences who would have problems with the Bahai rules about women, homosexuality, pre-publication review, and the separation of church-and-state. So where does that leave us? Peace GIlberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:49:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:45:25 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Personally, I think that it is possible to outline certain features which constitute a good government but this should be independent from a particular ideology. Which is, of course, a product of western secular thought and practice. No, not at all. There is the example of the community of the prophet in the Medina and statements in the Quran, the hadith, the writings of early Muslims which discuss what it means to be a just ruler, and what is the proper role of government. You can certain talk about how the ruler should be responsive to the needs of the people, and shouldn't be a tyrant, and that government officials shouldn't be corrupt, etc. without having to swallow along with it secular liberal capitalsm. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:11:24 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience" isactually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determinewhat "the conscience" is saying to us? I mean, if everyone could justlisten to their conscience, and the conscience was reliable then wewouldn't have any real need for religion. No, the conscience is not a perfect guide. But the society is a perfect society within its paradigm The one thing we can accurately determine for ourselves with no assistance is that our conscience judges our actions with absolute accuracy. That is part of the human logos. There is other absolute truth in this: We do not always act as our conscience dictates. The whole concept of "guilt" arises from this paradox. Our acts do not always meet our own inward judgement of our acts. This is where we need the Revelation of God so our actionsmay be better rectified with out "conscience". Part of the problem is that people's conscience aren't always the mostreliable. Even from a Bahai perspective, aren't there some verycommonly-held moral opinions, even in the West which are just wrong?So why should popular conscience be the ultimate arbiter? Popular conscience and social conscience and inner conscience are three different things, are they not? As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and places SOCIAL laws BE another time and place's social laws that problems arise.What are the specific problems? Trying to enforce the cutting off of a man's hand for theft becomes a problem when the rest of the world society perceives it to be brutal - for one instance. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:18:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Who is "they"? the closest grammatic reference - being from your statement: "Baha`i's". " Bahais tell Muslims what "Seal of the Prophets" means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how the second coming of Christ is supposed to happen. etc." Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:56:54 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 11:15:44 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But it is possible to set up a society in such a way that keeping the law is easy and structure legal-police-justice system such it would only rarely meet out punishments. That seems to be the thinking of various Utopians from Plato to the Oneida colony. Your point being? The ethos of Islam isn't to go around just lookin' for folks to punish. Looking through windows and eavesdroppings are sins mentioned in the Quran. So there should be limits to what a morality cop would do. The prophet encouraged Muslism to find ways to avoid applying the punishments. I'm sure I've said it before, but in order to geta convinction for adultery you need four upright eye-witness who actually saw the penetration. What is being punished isn't just a private discreet behavior, but a rare kind of shamelessness. -Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Why rehashing the past? Re: Perennial Bab?
:It just has been weird to see isolated statements of mine, from month-old posts, Dear Gilberto, Sorry for the confusion. I was out of town when those were posted. I've been reading my older email first lately because AOL deletes anything that is more than a month old if I haven't opened it before then. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:06:14 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:25:12 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: It seems like the Bahai faith divides humanity up in different periods or dispensations. And during a given period, everyone on earth should follow the particular manifestation for that period. Scott: I think that is an oversimplification. No Revelation was meant to unify mankind over the globe in a single belief system UNTIL Baha`u'llah. Gilberto: There are similar statements made in Islam, and Christianity. And from a certain point of even in Judaism and the Noachide religions. There are certain principles which, if properly understood, can guide behavior at multiple levels of organization. In other words it was not the point of the Revelation of Moses to unify more than the Hebrew clans. It was not the nature of Jesus' Revelation to affect more than the west. It was the purpose of the Revelation of Muhammed to unite the Arabian peoples into a nation and serve as a shining example of God's Will to the world. Islam isn't just an Arab religion. Even before the time of the Bab, Islam spread to Persia, crossed the Sahara and went into Africa, Spain, the edges of France, Eastern Europe, China, Southeast Asia, oh and the Middle East. I think all religions tap into universal values, tap into what it basically means to be human. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:22:43 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:11:24 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience is actually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determine what the conscience is saying to us? I mean, if everyone could just listen to their conscience, and the conscience was reliable then we wouldn't have any real need for religion. No, the conscience is not a perfect guide. But the society is a perfect society within its paradigm Gilberto: I don't understand what you mean by that. There are certainly people whose consicence moves them to protest and criticize institutions of the society they live in. Scott: The one thing we can accurately determine for ourselves with no assistance is that our conscience judges our actions with absolute accuracy. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean here either. If this were true wouldn't religion be unnecessary? Gilberto: Part of the problem is that people's conscience aren't always the most reliable. Even from a Bahai perspective, aren't there some very commonly-held moral opinions, even in the West which are just wrong? So why should popular conscience be the ultimate arbiter? Scott: Popular conscience and social conscience and inner conscience are three different things, are they not? Gilberto: What is the distinction between popular conscience and social conscience? Scott: As I said, it is only when some try to make one time and places SOCIAL laws BE another time and place's social laws that problems arise. Gilberto: What are the specific problems? Scott: Trying to enforce the cutting off of a man's hand for theft becomes a problem when the rest of the world society perceives it to be brutal - for one instance. Gilberto: But on what grounds is it brutal? MAybe I'm not being clear enough. It just seems that religions create groups and institutions which promote certain values in society. And there are at least two important tasks which religions carry out in society. One, when the society drifts away from its core values, the religion should remind people of certain principles. And secondly, at the same time, religious leaders need to apply these principles to new situations and correctly understand what is going on in society and be sensitive and flexible to current situations in order to remain relevant. ESpecially when popular opinion drifts too far from the basic values, then popular notions of what is good become much less reliable in terms of determining right and wrong. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:42:49 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 1:39:15 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Islam isn't just an Arab religion. Even before the time of the Bab, Islam spread to Persia, crossed the Sahara and went into Africa, Spain, the edges of France, Eastern Europe, China, Southeast Asia, oh and the Middle East. I think all religions tap into universal values, tap into what it basically means to be human. Scott: Of course it is not. It has spread widely. [...] Now it is present in most socieities around the world, but nowhere but its places of origin is it the primary faith. Gilberto: That is factually incorrect. By alot. My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west (so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how exactly is that whole fining process a deterrent? JS: Doubling is the key word here. If the fine for adultery is $100, it will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd time, $800 4th time, $1600 5th, $3200 6th, $6400 7th, $12800 8th, $25600 9th, $51200 10th, $102,400 11th. I don't think I would be able to affort to do it more than 7 times. Wow, do you have a spouse who would let you cheat on her 7 times?I think even thinking about it would put me on the couch for weeks.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail! has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
In a message dated 1/23/2005 1:59:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto:That is factually incorrect. By alot."My people are hydroponic" I'll grant you Indonesia for sure. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:10:03 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/23/2005 1:59:19 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gilberto: That is factually incorrect. By alot. My people are hydroponic I'll grant you Indonesia for sure._ http://members.tripod.com/arabicpaper/country.html name - population of country - percentage of Muslims Afghanistan 18M 99% 2 Albania 2.3M 75% 3 Algeria 22M 98% 4 Bahrain .220M 99% 5 Bangladesh 100M 85% 6 Cameroon 6.2M 55% 7 Central African Republic 2M 55% 8 Chad 4M 85% 9 Dahomey 3M 60% 10 Egypt 51M 93% 11 Ethiopia 27M 65% 12 Gambia .4M 85% 13 Guinea 4.3M 95% 14 Guinea-Bissau .81M 70% 15 Indonesia 161M 95% 16 Iran 48M 98% 17 Iraq 14.5M 95% 18 Ivory Coast 5M 55% 19 Jordan 3M 95% 20 Kuwait 1M 98% 21 Lebanon 3M 57% 22 Libya 3M 100% 23 Malaysia 14.5M 52% 24 Maldive Islands 12M 100% 25 Mali 6M 90% 26 Mauritania 2M 100% 27 Morocco 24M 99% 28 Niger 4.5M 91% 29 Nigeria 100M 75% 30 Oman .75M 100% 31 Pakistan 90M 97% 32 Qatar .18M 100% 33 Saudi Arabia 10.5M 100 34 Senegal 7M 95% 35 Sierra Leone 3M 65% 36 Somalia 5M 100% 37 South Yemen 1.5M 95% 38 Sudan 22M 85% 39 Syria 11M 87% 40 Tanzania 15M 65% 41 Togo 2.1M 55% 42 Tunisia 7M 95% 43 Turkey 66M 99% 44 U.A.E .32M 100% 45 Upper Volta 6M 56% 46 North Yemen 6M 99% My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:23:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What's the question? That's the answer "pop" is one thing and "society" is another. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:08:27 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 12:10 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote: My present-day conscience tells me that burning people alive is brutal. I also think in the West there are many present-day consciences who would have problems with the Bahai rules about women, homosexuality, pre-publication review, and the separation of church-and-state. To my understanding, references to conscience in the Baha'i primary sources are an affirmation of human responsibility and volition and a rejection of religious compulsion (proselytizing). They are not essentializing conscience. So does that mean that conscience isn't thought of as some sort of internalized sense of right and wrong? Peace GIlberto Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/23/2005 4:04:38 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I honestly don't understand what you mean. As an individual it seemslike you can have your own sense of right and wrong which might bedifferent from those of people around you. But I don't know what youmean by social conscience and popular conscience. I don't think there really is such athing as "pop" conscience. There is "pop" culture, but that is a shibboleth as far as I am concerned it has changed before you can describe it. I feel one's conscience is one's sense of spiritual place and how that spiritual place relates to society in a whole. I don't think "pop conscience" exists. Whatever it might be. It is something other than personal conscience or social conscience. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
In a message dated 1/23/2005 1:28:28 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2. Over millennia, mankind has become better able to absorb aspects of reality. Gilberto:Sure, in terms of scientific and technical knowledge, ability tocontrol the physical environment. We've gotten better at that. 3. Different eras and cultures have had different spiritual needs,Gilberto:What different spiritual needs? Reality is perceived in two main ways - through the senses (science) and through the spirit. One cannot perceive reality in aspiritual sense, nor can one perceive reality in a physical sense - one cannot see it (reality) with just one eye. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 03:47 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote: So does that mean that conscience isn't thought of as some sort of internalized sense of right and wrong? To my understanding, the conscience is a person's internalization of socially constructed moral codes. However, there is, in addition, what Baha'u'llah calls a sense of shame: Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. -- Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p.27 Since everyone has a conscience, and Baha'u'llah says that this sense of shame is confined to a few, I would *assume* that they are different. To my understanding, the sense of shame is a protection against violating one's conscience. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Arson
Susan wrote: This is what the Universal House of Justice wrote me on the subject of conscience: ...not only the right but also the responsibility of each believer to explore truth for himself or herself are fundamental to the Baha'i teachings...A Baha'i recognizes that one aspect of his spiritual and intellectual growth is to foster the development of his conscience in the light of divine Revelation -- a Revelation which, in addition to providing a wealth of spiritual and ethical principles, exhorts man to free himself from idle fancy and imitation, discern with the eye of oneness His glorious handiwork, and look into all things with a searching eye. Is it fair, then, to assert that the Bahá'í Faith anticipates eventual consensus on matters of conscience, based on critical thinking which, in some cases, may be a novel experience? Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Usama Bin Laden calls Mahmoud Abbas a Baha'i
It is hardly news that Osama bin Laden does not share the Enlightenment value placed on a citizen's right to vote for a representative government. IMO, this editorial is mostly nonsense. The fact that an opinion journalist would spout out this twaddle raises serious questions, in my mind, about his qualifications to write for a supposedly reputable newspaper. Why is he questioning al-Qa'ida's commitment to democracy but *not* that of the West, especially the United States and Britain? It is absurd to believe that there is any intention on that parts of these two governments to bring about democracy or freedom (whatever they are) in Iraq and other countries. If so, the U.S. and Britain would not be working so feverishly to marginalize those Iraqis who want to institute an Iranian-style Shi'ih theocracy. In other words, it is not democracy which is being promoted by these power-hungry Western regimes. It is governments friendly to globalization, both economic and political, and Zionism. Several so-called pundits have been pointing out supposed differences between President Bush and his father, a well-known internationalist. It is simply more foolishness. Nothing significant has changed but the language. The current president has simply found a way to package his father's internationalism in a manner more appealing to social conservatives. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Tsunami
Dear friends, You might be interested in reading the story on this link. http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=61997 Shabnam, Tribal Welfare Officer mentioned in this story is a lifelong Baha'i. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Past Revelations
G: Fine. Then as long as you recognize that, we are done. And to keep dwelling on it is unnecessary. No, We're not. At least not in the sense you think. As I said in my past posting, just because Christianity allows for prophets, by their definition; not your's, does not mean that Christianity does not believe in its finality. My point was that you are wrong in your belief that Islam is the only religion that preaches finality. Just because you cling to a rather narrow definition of finality does not make your stance correct. Rich __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Usama Bin Laden calls Mahmoud Abbas a Baha'i
In a message dated 1/23/2005 7:31:00 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there any truth to this rumor?I thought read somewhere that one or both of Abbas' parents were Baha'i. Dear Dean, Not that I've been able to ascertain. I wrote and asked the External Affairs Office about this rumor a few years ago and they informed me it was false and they had no idea what the rumor is based on. Subsequently I was able to trace back the source of that rumor to MOSSAD who apparently started it because they knew it would discredit him. They must be regretting that now that the Islamists are repeating that rumor for their own purposes. Abu Mazen is the only Palestinian leader the Israelis canhope to work with. He himself states he is a believing Muslim as were his parents. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Century of Light
Susan, I have my own personal opinion as well, which differs somewhat from Schaefer's, but I figured Gilberto was asking for something authoritative. warmest, Susan Dear Susan, Thanks so much for your reply. I read Schaefer's article some time back and personally based on my own understanding I do agree with most of what he has to say about the infallibility of the House. I do appreciate to read what you have to say on the same subject. Thanks so much for sharing your ideas. Why the House does not write anything about this subject? Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Usama Bin Laden calls Mahmoud Abbas a Baha'i
Have the families of the covenant breakers assimilated into Palestinian society? Are any of the descendants of unfaithful Aghsan among them? Perhaps in positions of power? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:bounce-158716- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean Betts Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:34 PM To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: Usama Bin Laden calls Mahmoud Abbas a Baha'i Is there any truth to this rumor? I thought read somewhere that one or both of Abbas' parents were Baha'i. Susan Maneck wrote: And he takes the accusation of apostasy one step farther by declaring that the candidate Mahmoud Abbas is a Bahai, Whoah, I didn't know Bin Laden had adopted this rumor. As I understand, Mossad started it. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:leave-bahai-st- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/05 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:leave-bahai-st- [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Usama Bin Laden calls Mahmoud Abbas a Baha'i
In a message dated 1/23/2005 8:45:58 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Have the families of the covenant breakers assimilated into Palestiniansociety? Are any of the descendants of unfaithful Aghsan among them?Perhaps in positions of power? Dear Dick, That thought did occur to me. Baha'u'llah granddaughter, for instance, married a leading Palestinian agitator and was eventually arrested for terrorism by the British Some of these Covenant breakersmarried into the family of the Mufti of Jerusalem.Naturally the Guardian was aghast that they would do either of these two things.But I've never seen any real evidencethat Abu Mazen descends from any of these people. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
IT'S TIME FOR THE GUY WHO WORKS AT A JAIL TO WEIGH IN :-). Actually, you're both right. In forensics we discuss the sociopathic triangle; fire setting, cruelty to animals, and bed wetting. All three turn up in many serial killers. Rich Susan Maneck wrote: It seems that sociopaths manifest their affliction first by an inclination to burn down buildings. Dear Janine, I've always heard it was expressed earliest as children in torturing animals. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Century of Light
Mark : If I might throw in my 2¢ here. To my understanding, the infallibility of the House of Justice refers to its legislative decisions based on an elucidation of the Text. Personally, I understand legislation as dealing, broadly, with matters of praxis. Yesterday I suggested that the approval of documents, such as _Century of Light_, might not fall under the legislative magisterium of the House of Justice. I would also question whether certain of its own papers and letters, those which do not focus on praxis, would be included in its legislative authority. Dear Mark, Thanks for your comment. Here is my question. Let's assume that the House of Justice actually consulted on the contents of Century of Light and decided to write it by themselves, similar to Ridvan Messages, do you then consider it Century of Light still an infallible document? How do you regard such messages of the House, i.e. Ridvan Messages? There is usuallaly no praxis in such messages. Another question, House comes with some plans, such as the current 5 year plan, do you consider such plans as infallible? I am sure that what ever decision the House makes is to be followed by believers and it's the source of all good but still there is a distinction between a decision being infallible and a decision being the source of all good. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Century of Light
Hi, Firouz, At 09:17 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote: Thanks for your comment. Here is my question. Let's assume that the House of Justice actually consulted on the contents of Century of Light and decided to write it by themselves, similar to Ridvan Messages, do you then consider it Century of Light still an infallible document? No, I don't believe that documents can be infallible. Baha'u'llah and the Master are often infallible. The Guardian and the House of Justice may also be infallible, protected from sinning or deviating from God's Will, in their own magisteria (offices). However, I don't think we can be sure of the impact of those infallibilities, or protections, on texts. How do you regard such messages of the House, i.e. Ridvan Messages? There is usuallaly no praxis in such messages. Another question, House comes with some plans, such as the current 5 year plan, do you consider such plans as infallible? The Ridvan messages are generally calls to action (praxis). To my understanding, that could be considered as falling under the House's legislative magisterium. I am sure that what ever decision the House makes is to be followed by believers and it's the source of all good but still there is a distinction between a decision being infallible and a decision being the source of all good. If a decision of the House of Justice is intended to be followed by believers, in their actions, I would call it legislative. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:12:52 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave: Different eras and cultures have had different spiritual needs, Gilberto: What different spiritual needs? Dave: I'm not sure I'm the person to ask...but then, I did make the statement, didn't I. Gilberto: Yup Dave: Perhaps I should have said that different cultures need to have universal ideas expressed to them in unique ways. Gilberto: I wouldn't object to that. Dave: Several ways that differing spiritual needs have manifested themselves occur to me: the obsession with immortality leading to mummification in ancient Egypt; But don't people still try to remember the dead. Or stay alive longer, extending life, getting plastic surgery. etc? [...] Dave: I don't actually think the essential spiritual needs of humans have changed all that much over time. Gilberto: I would agree but then what is the logical consequence. If a certain set of practices was able to address and satisfy the essential spiritual needs of people at one point in time, wouldn't it be possible for people to continue to embrace those principles and still have those needs met? Gilberto: Yes. People were spoken to in a way understandable to them. [14.4] And We did not send any apostle but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise. Why would God cause anyone to err? Gilberto: I think it has to do with determinism v. free will which would be a whole other discussion. Gilberto: I'm not sure that Perennialists are saying that there is a one-size-fits-all religion. Well, fundamentalist Christians certainly subscribe to that notion, and I'm not sure they're the only ones. Yup/ Gilberto: They do seem to be saying that many different religions have an underlying unity. Dave: Isn't that pretty obvious? Gilberto: Not to everyone. Gilberto: I would add that as far as the major religions go, I think that individuals within each tradition would have the capacity to look at the bigger picture while still being faithful to their own traditions. Up to a point. But if one accepts the idea of progressive revelation, then one would have an incentive to dig deeper than the offerings of any one religion. I don't see how you can say that the offerings of a religion have been exhausted. The Bahá'í view, as I understand it, is that each religion contains essential gems of divine revelation, while the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh ties these various threads together into a unified whole, I feel the same way about ISlam. Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
The Infallibility of the House of Justice (long)
I do appreciate to read what you have to say on the same subject. Thanks so much for sharing your ideas. Dear Firouz, Well, I haven't written a whole lot on it because my own conception of infallibility is still somewhat (and maybe always will be)amorphous. Anything I write on the topic is still a work in progress. The problem I have with Schaefer's conception is that I think it largely misses the point and is too legalistic. He's a lawyer and sees the issue of infallibility in legalistic terms. While this might make sense given that the House's sphere is primarily that of legislation, the term ismat means, as Mark has said sinlessness. Like Mark I think it refers to their ability to reflect the will of God. But given that fact, I don't think it makes sense to simply confine it to certain narrow functions. That would suggest it is a form of propositional inerrancy rather than a moral and existential category as I think ismat implies. If you recall Dr. Schaefer's argument he separates infallibility from divine guidance. I do not. Whatever I understand about the operation of divine guidance is what I understand about infallibility as well. It seems to me that the problems Dr. Schaefer finds in having too rigid an interpretation of infallibility apply just as much in the legislative sphere as they do in other administrative and judicial areas in which Schaefer does not think the House is infallible. For instance, I'm inclined to believe that a legislative decision can be made on the basis of misinformation as much as an administrative decision, and just as much be changed on the basis of new information. I note that part of Dr. Schaefer's concern is an apologetic one which I share; that we not conceive of the the doctrine of infallibility in ways which are logically absurd and subject to falsification. But I really have to ask whether or not restricting infallibility to the legislative sphere only really achieves that purpose. What I think it instead leads to is endless speculations as to which of the House's decisions constitute legislation and therefore justifying the challenging of decisions which are defined not to be so. This is pretty much what Catholics do when they debate endlessly as to whether a certain Papal decision comes from the chair of Peter. While, Dr. Schaefer affirms that this has nothing to do with the House's authority in all areas, and that they must be obeyed regardless, it should be recognized that this obedience is being taken a very literalistic fashion at present. For instance, if the House itself hasn't explicitly told someone to shut up, they continue to consider it their prerogative to publicly criticize the decisions of the Supreme Institution and thereby undermine its authority. Also, it is not at all clear to me that some of the acts which Udo Schaefer understands to be legislation are in fact that. For instance, Udo Schaefer considers the declaration that there can never be another Guardian to be an act of legislation. But the House itself considered it to be an elucidation, one of the few instances where I have seen them refer to one of their acts as such. It also seems to me that the restriction of the infallibility of the House of Justice to legislative does not coincide very well with their own self-understanding. For instance, Schaefer seems to see only the Guardian and not the House as infallible in protection matters. But here is what the House has to say in regards to this: the Universal House of Justice shares with the Guardian the responsibility for the application of the revealed word, the protection of the Faith, as well as the duty to insure the continuity of that divinely-appointed authority which flows from the Source of our Faith, to safeguard the unity of its followers, and to maintain the integrity and flexibility of its Teachings. However, the Universal House of Justice is not omniscient; like the Guardian, it wants to be provided with facts when called upon to render a decision, and like him it may well change its decision when new facts emerge. . . . http://bahai-library.org/uhj/infall.uhj.html That certainly suggests to me that the House regarded its own authority as identical with the Guardian in this area. Now if indeed, the infallibility of the House is restricted to legislation one could conceivably argue that they are wrong here. But I feel very nervous when it comes to questioning the House's own self-understanding. After all, virtually everything we believe about 'Abdu'l-Baha's own infallibility is derived from statements in which He expressed His own self-understanding. Why the House does not write anything about this subject? Well, they have written some things which I quote above, just not anything comprehensive. I think there are probably three reasons for this. First, this may be an areas of interpretation wherein the House has no authority to rule. Second, I'm not sure there is sufficient unanimity among the House members
Re: Arson
Scott: Trying to enforce the cutting off of a man's hand for theft becomes a problem when the rest of the world society perceives it to be brutal - for one instance. Gilberto: But on what grounds is it brutal? It's inhumane; lacking in compassion, sympathy, or consideration for a fellow human being. It's a life sentence without an appendage. It's an act of vengence, branding, and humiliation rather than one of punishment equal to the crime. And, before you ask... burning someone alive would also be inhumane; which is why we have an alternative solution. Anyway, who knows 500 years from now what will be the method of execution or for that matter if humans will even dwell on this planet ? lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Marriage simplicity
Gilberto: To get married you only need 2 witnesses and it literally could just take a couple seconds to have a legally valid marriage. For your general information this could well describe the requirements to sanction a Baha'i marriage. Before at least two witnesses the couple each recite this verse: We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God. (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 105) Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
Gilberto: My present-day conscience tells me that burning people alive is brutal. I also think in the West there are many present-day consciences who would have problems with the Bahai rules about women, homosexuality, pre-publication review, and the separation of church-and-state. So where does that leave us? In a state of moral decline. Bearing in mind that -from my Baha'i perspective- this Dispensation is less that 200 years old with approximately 800 years to go and reflecting on the Dispensations of the past the greater part of humanity is still asleep. The following is from Citadel of Faith, by Shoghi Effendi, who describes some projections for 'America as enunciated by Abdu'l-Baha: The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed, from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by 'Abdu'l-Bahá, in the hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery tribulations will not only firmly weld the American nation to its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by 'Abdu'l-Bahá's unerring pen -- a role which she is bound to fulfill through travail and sorrow. (Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p. 126) lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The Infallibility of the House of Justice (long)
Hi, Susan, At 11:15 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote: But given that fact, I don't think it makes sense to simply confine it to certain narrow functions. From a minimalist standpoint, I think one should only affirm infallibility when it has been specifically authorized. With regard to the House of Justice, the only references to infallibility, or Covenantal protection, I have seen focus on its legislative magisterium. For instance: To epitomize: essential infallibility belongs especially to the supreme Manifestations, and acquired infallibility is granted to every holy soul. For instance, the Universal House of Justice, if it be established under the necessary conditions - with members elected from all the people - that House of Justice will be under the protection and the unerring guidance of God. If that House of Justice shall decide unanimously, or by a majority, upon any question not mentioned in the Book, that decision and command will be guarded from mistake. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.172 And now, concerning the House of Justice which God hath ordained as the source of all good and freed from all error, it must be elected by universal suffrage, that is, by the believers. Its members must be manifestations of the fear of God and daysprings of knowledge and understanding, must be steadfast in God's faith and the well-wishers of all mankind. By this House is meant the Universal House of Justice, that is, in all countries a secondary House of Justice must be instituted, and these secondary Houses of Justice must elect the members of the Universal one. Unto this body all things must be referred. It enacteth all ordinances and regulations that are not to be found in the explicit Holy Text. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Will and Testament, p.14 If there are other areas in which the House of Justice is given covenantal protection (ma'sum/'ismat), or infallibility, I think they would need to be substantiated from the Sacred Texts or the interpretations of the Guardian. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
My understanding based on K73 of Kitab-i-Aqdas is that capital punishment is not to be exercised in a Baha'i State. ... Let none contend with another, and let no soul slay another; this, verily, is that which was forbidden you in a Book that hath lain concealed within the Tabernacle of glory. What! Would ye kill him whom God hath quickened, whom He hath endowed with spirit through a breath from Him? Grievous then would be your trespass before His throne! Fear God, and lift not the hand of injustice and oppression to destroy what He hath Himself raised up; nay, walk ye in the way of God, the True One. No sooner did the hosts of true knowledge appear, bearing the standards of Divine utterance, than the tribes of the religions were put to flight, save only those who willed to drink from the stream of everlasting life in a Paradise created by the breath of the All-Glorious. regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Arson
IMO, the problem with discussions of this sort is that they assume there is something called goodness apart from the taxonomies provided by the Prophet in each Dispensation. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
