RE: Scope of the House of Justice
But as before the infallibility in no way comes from the Guardian. Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it at all times, and as its Head. In that formulation, why wouldn't the infallibility of the House come through the Guardian? In all the current discussions about the scope of the House, etc, folks make the assumption that when Universal House of Justice (or words that would refer to that exalted institution) are mentioned in the Writings, the same institution is meant. Let me add a little spice to the discussion by suggesting (and not that I personally believe that!!), what if that wasn't the case? That is, consider the following: Baha'u'llah envisioned a Universal House of Justice that was an elected office (without any mention of the Guardian whatsoever) concerned with affairs of State and people (see 8th Glad Tidings). But its scope had a limit: this House could not change things He had revealed, nor pass laws on acts of worship. The limits that Baha'u'llah envisioned for this House are quite important. It is not a House that can legislate, say, on Obligatory Prayers, because that is a matter of personal worship and Baha'u'llah anticipated a House that legislated as a Islamic shari'a, but enjoyed consultative and democratic norms. Abdu'l-Baha's vision may have been different. He instituted the office of the Guardianship, but one that would continued indefinitely -- and not just through letters written during 1920's thru 1950's, but a living, breathing Guardian who served as the Head of the House. In the WT, Abdu'l-Baha assures that the Guardian is under the care of the Twin Manifestations. Later, He states that the House is under this care. It seems to me that an argument could well be made that the assurance of infallibility, in that situation, is very much dependent on the service of the living Guardian. Furthermore, every bit of the writing we have from Shoghi Effendi clearly envisions a House of Justice that had a Guardian serving on it at all times. Could such a House of Justice, for instance, legislate on, say, obligatory prayers? Of course. Why? Because the Guardian had a brought mandate to interpret the Text, and he could have guided the deliberation of the House on acts of worship. So an argument could be put forth (and again, I'm not necessarily suggesting that argument, only pointing out that it has some merits), that the notion of the scope of the House of Justice very much changed from Baha'u'llah to Abdu'l-Baha/Shoghi Effendi. So, to say, the Writings says such and such about the House seems to be talking about apples and oranges. I don't have time now, but some time next week I might develop these thoughts more carefully, using all the actual Texts (and not just a summary, like in the Constitution of the House of Justice). Regards, Ahang. __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:16:17 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But as before the infallibility in no way comes from the Guardian. Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it at all times, and as its Head. In that formulation, why wouldn't the infallibility of the House come through the Guardian? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but are you a Remey-ite? -- pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but are you a Remey-ite? Are you insane?? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Susan: Is that what your argument is based on, capitalization? Because as far as I know there is not any convention whereby Baha'is are supposed to use upper case letters to refer to the Universal House of Justice and lower case when referring to other institutions. The only difference between those passages using caps or not using caps as far as I can tell is that the former are translated by the Guardian and the latter are later translations. Dear Susan, Considering that I wasn't stating my opinion and and defining my personal logic in an attempt to persuade, I would have to say No to your question. I don't view this as a great debate with a winner and loser. I view this as consultation with a view to gaining new insights; and no vested interest in anyone accepting or rejecting my opinion. Actually, whenever, I have a curiosity about a particular topic I research for constancy in the writings. Having done that - I'm personally convinced that my initial understanding still holds... (for me at least!) Would you agree that in the English language words which are are capitalized enable the reader to distinguish, in context, the significance of the capitalization. For instance: God or god. I trust the Guardian intended to convey the distinctive nature of the title when capitalizing *Trustees*. He knew the value of nuances contained in the English language and utilized the language as a tool - I suspect it was an exercise he relished. World Order was the first Baha'i book I read and I still find it totally amazing as an example of the vast range of the English language with regard to clarity. I do hope Ahang can find time to track the scope of the House of Justice through the text. I think it's an important topic to pursue and gain a better understanding of the progression of the vision from Baha'u'llah, to Abdu'l-Baha and then the Guardian. Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Ocean
Does anyone know how to contact (by email) the people that produce Ocean? Or can someone point out a link to them on the Ocean/Baha'i Education website? James If you have Ocean installed on your computer there is a link to the author under the resources button on the toolbar (and also under help). __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice
Gilberto, At 07:31 AM 1/30/2005, you wrote: Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but are you a Remey-ite? Sorry I didn't catch this message earlier. I have been running a fever. Ahang Rabbani is far from it. He is a devoted member of the Baha'i Faith. What would have made you come to that conclusion? Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
Gilberto, At 07:55 AM 1/30/2005, you wrote: I gave this a little more thought and I think that perhaps we could all agree that morality can be situational and that what is appropriate or inappropriate can depend on the concrete specifics of a situation, but I think that would still see morality as more objective and in some respects prior to a prophet, while both of you would see morality as very much dependent on the Manifestation. That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality I'm more likely to say that the prophets command X because X is right. While I think both of you would say that X is right because the Manifestation commands X. Right, that is how I see it. Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true followers of Jesus. Dear Gilberto, I think the above is a good example of perennialist triumphalism. The perenialist decides what the original religion was or wasn't, despite what that religion may say about itself. That's EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what the Bahais do to Muslims. Despite what Muslims may say, Bahais tell Muslims what Seal of the Prophets means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how the second coming of Christ is supposed to happen. etc. -Gilberto I agree with you in one sense, but I am not certain you see it the same way I do. You say that Baha'is tell Muslims how to interpret scripture. This is true in the same sense that Christians gave new interpretations of Jewish prophecies; however, I disagree with the concept of triumphalism in that it implies superiority. To me, a Baha'i understanding would simply be observational--fitting the pieces together--and done in a spirit of humility and submission to God's great plan. In any religion, Baha'i or otherwise, a sense of triumphalism implies to me a certain degree of vanity joining partners with God. Always, to me, the concepts of seeing, hearing, and understanding on spiritual terms the truth of any interpretation of scripture is contingent upon humility and selflessness. The more an interpretation (or an interpreter) looks beyond selfish or prideful reasons for a certain interpretation, the more likely the interpretation is to be valid. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Gilberto: Ok, I believe you. But then when you are in your Bahai paradigm, and read that the Buddha is identified with being a Manifestation, but the teachings of real live Buddhists in the world don't seem to be consistent with the Bahai teachings, I'm not sure what you do. Do you bracket the paradigm of the real live Buddhists away from the Bahai paradigm so that they are never compared with one another? Or do you do something else? As I see it, the differences between the teachings of real live Buddhists and Baha'i understandings are largely due to the accretions of humans over time, rather than the original teachings of the divine Manifestation, to the core spiritual truths taught by Buddha. It's my understanding that very little of Buddha's message was written down until after the advent of Christ, by which time there was a lot added to the original teachings. And . . . the Buddhist texts have been added to ever since. To me, the important paradigm is Buddha's enlightenment obtained under the fig tree (i.e. tree of life--he clearly obtained enlightenment from no other place, person or object) and consequently the teachings he shared under auspices of the Tree of Life, the Holy Spirit, the Sadrat'l-Muntaha, or whatever metaphor you might use. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but are you a Remey-ite? Are you insane?? LOL. Gilberto is not a Baha'i, Ahang, and he doesn't know you. But he is familiar with Remeyite arguments and some of your arguments resembled theirs. They insist that the infallibility of the House of Justice is something that flows only through the Guardian. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice
Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it at all times, and as its Head. In that formulation, why wouldn't the infallibility of the House come through the Guardian? Dear Ahang, First off, the Guardian did not have to serve on it at all times. He could send someone to do this on his behest. That person would certainly not share in the Guardian's infalliblity and the House's decisions would not be any less infallible because someone else chaired the meeting. Second, if Abdu'l-Baha thought the infallibility of the House flowed from the Guardian one would think He would have said that explicitly. There are Tablets from Abdu'l-Baha where He speaks of the House's infallibility but makes no mention of the Guardian whatsoever. In all the current discussions about the scope of the House, etc, folks make the assumption that when Universal House of Justice (or words that would refer to that exalted institution) are mentioned in the Writings, the same institution is meant. I think the assumption we are making is that Abdu'l-Baha is the authorized interpreter of Baha'u'llah's word. And hence the Master's elucidations on the operations of the House reflect Baha'u'llah's intentions. Let me add a little spice to the discussion by suggesting (and not that I personally believe that!!), what if that wasn't the case? From a historical standpoint one could reasonably argue that Abdu'l-Baha's teachings did not always reflect Baha'u'llah's intentions but from a theological standpoint I think that would be untenable in terms of the Covenant. In regards to a House with a sitting Guardian you write: Could such a House of Justice, for instance, legislate on, say, obligatory prayers? Of course. Why? Because the Guardian had a brought mandate to interpret the Text, and he could have guided the deliberation of the House on acts of worship. That doesn't make much sense to me, Ahang. The Guardian doesn't *need* the House to legislate where he can interpret. Yet he stated that the House, not himself, would decide this issue. I think the more reasonable explanation is that the clause in the Aqdas which says that acts of Worship should be done in accordance with the Book, did not exclude the House from ruling on 'matters that are obscure' in this regard. So, to say, the Writings says such and such about the House seems to be talking about apples and oranges. I don't see a different House being talked about. I see Abdu'l-Baha did stress two things which Baha'u'llah did not mention, the its being headed by a Guardian and the second being its infallibility. Your argument is that the two things are connected. I don't see that. Baha'u'lllah never talked explicitly about the infallibility of the House but then He never stated explicitly that Abdu'l-Baha was infallible, as we've discussed previously. Infallibility is simply a theme which Abdu'l-Baha stresses a lot, probably because He saw it as necessary to preserve authority after the passing of Baha'u'llah. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 03:16:17 -0800 (PST), Ahang Rabbani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But as before the infallibility in no way comes from the Guardian. Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it at all times, and as its Head. In that formulation, why wouldn't the infallibility of the House come through the Guardian? What evidence is there that he envisioned a living Guardian? And if so, and he was just totally wrong on this point, what does that mean in terms of infallibility? Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Considering that I wasn't stating my opinion and and defining my personal logic in an attempt to persuade, I would have to say No to your question. I don't view this as a great debate with a winner and loser. Dear Sandra, Sorry if I came down too hard in that last post. I'm using the term argument in the sense of a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true. You wrote: Would you agree that in the English language words which are are capitalized enable the reader to distinguish, in context, the significance of the capitalization. For instance: God or god. God is used a proper noun when it is capitalized if that is what you mean. But I'm not sure what you mean by enabling 'the reader to distinguish, in context, the significance of the capitalization.' I trust the Guardian intended to convey the distinctive nature of the title when capitalizing *Trustees*. Okay, but as I mentioned the only time he capitalized it was in that passage from the Iqan which does not refer to the members of any House of Justice, local or universal. The other passages you cited are not translated by the Guardian. The other cases are ones where he uses it in caps as a title in GPB and the World Order letters. I don't see any consistency in where he uses or doesn't use caps in conection with those texts. In any case, my point, is that you are ascribing a meaning to those texts which doesn't follow either from the rules of English grammar or from the Guardian's own usage. I don't see him adopting a convention of capitalizing references to the Universal House of Justice. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice
In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:29:19 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What evidence is there that he envisioned a living Guardian? Dear Gilberto, Abdu'l-Baha talks about the Guardian being the head of the Universal House of Justice for life in the Will and Testament. "And if so, and he was just totally wrong on this point, what does thatmean in terms of infallibility?" It wasn't prophecy, Gilberto, it was His Will and Testament that this be the case. However, that Will and Testament also placed certain conditions on how future Guardians could be selected, conditions which as it turned out could not be met after Shoghi Effendi died. What the Remeyite do is ignore those conditions in order to have another Guardian. What the rest of the Baha'i community did was go back to what Baha'u'llah said was to happen if His lineage ran out before the election of the Universal House of Justice. This was stated in the Aqdas: "Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsán, and after them to the House of Justice--should it be established in the world by then--that they may use these endowments for the benefit of the Places which have been exalted in this Cause, and for whatsoever hath been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the God of might and power. Otherwise, the endowments shall revert to the people of Bahá who speak not except by His leave and judge not save in accordance with what God hath decreed in this Tablet--lo, they are the champions of victory betwixt heaven and earth--that they may use them in the manner that hath been laid down in the Book by God, the Mighty, the Bountiful." That is pretty much what we did until the Universal House of Justice was elected in 1963. Note that Baha'u'llah assumes here thatthe House of Justice can operate without an "Aghsan" (a descendent of Baha'u'llah) which the Will and Testament stipulated a Guardian had to be. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:18:57 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: Ok, I believe you. But then when you are in your Bahai paradigm, and read that the Buddha is identified with being a Manifestation, but the teachings of real live Buddhists in the world don't seem to be consistent with the Bahai teachings, I'm not sure what you do. Do you bracket the paradigm of the real live Buddhists away from the Bahai paradigm so that they are never compared with one another? Or do you do something else? As I see it, the differences between the teachings of real live Buddhists and Baha'i understandings are largely due to the accretions of humans over time, rather than the original teachings of the divine Manifestation, to the core spiritual truths taught by Buddha. It's my understanding that very little of Buddha's message was written down until after the advent of Christ, by which time there was a lot added to the original teachings. If that's the case, why would God have let the message get distorted in this way? Peace gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:56:36 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto: I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true followers of Jesus. Dear Gilberto, Mark? I think the above is a good example of perennialist triumphalism. The perenialist decides what the original religion was or wasn't, despite what that religion may say about itself. Gilberto: That's EXACTLY, and I mean EXACTLY, what the Bahais do to Muslims. Despite what Muslims may say, Bahais tell Muslims what Seal of the Prophets means, what the Apocalypse means, who the Mahdi is, how the second coming of Christ is supposed to happen. etc. Patti: I agree with you in one sense, but I am not certain you see it the same way I do. You say that Baha'is tell Muslims how to interpret scripture. This is true in the same sense that Christians gave new interpretations of Jewish prophecies; however, I disagree with the concept of triumphalism in that it implies superiority. Gilberto: I agree that interpreting another religion's scriptures differently than they usually do does not, by itself constitute triumphalism. In terms of the original discussion, I don't believe that perennialism is necessarily or even frequently triumphalist. And however much I might disagree with Bahai interpretations of Islamic texts, the fact that Bahais disagree with what Muslims usually say, does not by itself imply triumphaslism either. To me, a Baha'i understanding would simply be observational--fitting the pieces together--and done in a spirit of humility and submission to God's great plan. I think it depends on how you see other religions fitting into the plan. Seing them as expired, spent, no longer valid, no longer reflective of God's will etc. are what I would consider triumphalist. Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:36:14 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 07:55 AM 1/30/2005, you wrote: I gave this a little more thought and I think that perhaps we could all agree that morality can be situational and that what is appropriate or inappropriate can depend on the concrete specifics of a situation, but I think that would still see morality as more objective and in some respects prior to a prophet, while both of you would see morality as very much dependent on the Manifestation. That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality Sure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative. My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldly making whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility for them. But I'm not sure what an existentialist morality would be. Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
If that's the case, why would God have let the message get distorted in this way? Dear Gilberto, You believe the same thing has happened to Christianity and Judaism, don't you? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:59:25 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If that's the case, why would God have let the message [of Buddhism] get distorted in this way? Dear Gilberto, You believe the same thing has happened to Christianity and Judaism, don't you? I was asking from a Bahai perspective. I am personally open to the idea that Buddha may have been a prophet, But I wouldn't insist on it the way that the Bahais do. So don't have any reason to believe that the current Buddhist scriptures are distorted. And personally, I wouldn't insist that the Bible is authentic either. But in the Kitab I-Iqan is the section which has often been quoted to me: How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension! [end quote] So if it would be nealy unthinkable that God would leave the followers of Jesus without access through scriptures then what about the followers of the Buddha? Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
But in the Kitab I-Iqan is the section which has often been quoted to me: How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension! [end quote] So if it would be nealy unthinkable that God would leave the followers of Jesus without access through scriptures then what about the followers of the Buddha? Note that in the above statement Baha'u'llah writes: What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? This indicates a time frame for guidance lasting only until the next dispensation. Remember Christ's parable of the barren fig tree? It appears to represent, at least in one sense, the teachings of Buddhism (revealed under the fig tree) that were no longer yielding their fruits (i.e. true spirituality of it's believers who would have recognized Christ) at the time of Christ's advent and withered away. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. Matthew 21:19-21 This does not mean that there is not a core of Buddhism (or any revealed religion) that is truth and continues today; however, it's my understanding that Buddhist scriptures are to this day still being added to by various humans and the infallible divine guidance is long gone. Patti __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:52:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist moralitySure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative.My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldlymaking whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility forthem. But I'm not sure what an "existentialist morality" would be. The original author said "essentialist", not "existentialist". Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
I am personally open to the idea that Buddha may have been a prophet, But I wouldn't insist on it the way that the Bahais do. Dear Gilberto, We believe it because Abdu'l-Baha said so. So don't have any reason to believe that the current Buddhist scriptures are distorted. Buddha appeared in India before writing was current there, so there really are no scriptures that can be directly linked to Him. So if it would be nealy unthinkable that God would leave the followers of Jesus without access through scriptures then what about the followers of the Buddha? I don't think Baha'u'llah's statement in the Iqan regarding the integrity of the Gospel should be taken to mean there couldn't be Manifestations before there were books. Buddha was born around 500 B.C. The current writing systems of India date only from around the Mauryan Empire, some two centuries later. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG
Dr. G. Thanks, the unsubscribe request went through From: "Richard H. Gravelly" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: "Baha'i Studies" bahai-st@list.jccc.edu To: "Baha'i Studies" bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Scope of the House of Justice -VERY LONG Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:58:01 -0800 The compilation is excellent Sandra.Thank you much. Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:50:20 -0800, Patti Goebel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But in the Kitab I-Iqan is the section which has often been quoted to me: How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension! [end quote] So if it would be nealy unthinkable that God would leave the followers of Jesus without access through scriptures then what about the followers of the Buddha? Note that in the above statement Baha'u'llah writes: What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? This indicates a time frame for guidance lasting only until the next dispensation. Sure. I understand that.very close to the passing of the Buddha, the disciples gathered to reiterate and recall the teachings as they remembered them. They were passed on orally for some time but there is still a large core of Buddhist scripture was in written form well before Christ. Remember Christ's parable of the barren fig tree? It appears to represent, at least in one sense, the teachings of Buddhism (revealed under the fig tree) that were no longer yielding their fruits (i.e. true spirituality of it's believers who would have recognized Christ) at the time of Christ's advent and withered away. Botanically and historically was the bodhi tree really a fig tree? Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:29:38 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am personally open to the idea that Buddha may have been a prophet, But I wouldn't insist on it the way that the Bahais do. Dear Gilberto, We believe it because Abdu'l-Baha said so. Fair enough. So don't have any reason to believe that the current Buddhist scriptures are distorted. Buddha appeared in India before writing was current there, so there really are no scriptures that can be directly linked to Him. Well, Jesus didn't write any of the New Testament himself either. I guess in the case of the Buddhist scriptures, the fact that there are a core of scriptures which pretty much a wide consensus of Buddhists seem to be in agreement about, and the fact that I have no particular reason to discount them is persuasive enough for me. Gilberto: So if it would be nealy unthinkable that God would leave the followers of Jesus without access through scriptures then what about the followers of the Buddha? Susan: I don't think Baha'u'llah's statement in the Iqan regarding the integrity of the Gospel should be taken to mean there couldn't be Manifestations before there were books. Gilberto: That's not what I'm saying. I'm not hung up on there being a book. The argument made in the Iqan regarding Christianity is basically: What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? And it just begs the question: What would be left to [Buddhists] to cling to from the setting of the day-star of [Sidhartha Gautama] until the rise of the [next Manifestation (Jesus?)] What law could be their stay and guide? Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: More Nature of Morality was Re: How to pick a prophet? Re: Arson
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:09:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/30/2005 12:52:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be my view, yes. However, I assume you believe in contextualizing some sort of timeless (?) essentialist morality Sure. Except I'm not sure I can clearly even imagine the alternative. My understanding of existentialism would suggest an individual boldly making whatever decisions they wanted and taking responsibility for them. But I'm not sure what an existentialist morality would be. The original author said essentialist, not existentialist. Yes, I know. Existentialism and Essentialism are often contrasted. So if Mark is opposing essentialist morality it suggests or at least raises the possibility that he is defending some version of existentialism. Existentialism is sometimes defined as the idea that your existence comes before your essence. You first are born, you exist, and THEN, through living and making decisions you decide for yourself what kind of person you will become, your essence. THAT you are, comes before WHAT you are. Although some Existentialists were theists, it is often associated with atheism. Essentialism tends to emphasize the other side. God created us and before we were born we had a certain purpose, and God-given human nature with certain attributes. And other things tend to be associated with this perspective too. To really get into the whole issue would probably take a really long discussion. Peace Gilberto -- pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Well, Jesus didn't write any of the New Testament himself either. No, but at least the NT material was written within a generation of His passing. Here we are talking about two centuries later. What would be left to [Buddhists] to cling to from the setting of the day-star of [Sidhartha Gautama] until the rise of the [next Manifestation (Jesus?)] What law could be their stay and guide? I think the Law Buddhist Dharma (i.e. the Eightfold Path) has likely maintained its integrity. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:09:44 -0500 (EST), Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: And it just begs the question: What would be left to [Buddhists] to cling to from the setting of the day-star of [Sidhartha Gautama] until the rise of the [next Manifestation (Jesus?)] What law could be their stay and guide? - The recorded oral tradition(s) or whatever Buddhists consider as their scripture. Right. That makes sense to me. But then those texts seem to disagree radically on certain points with Bahai teachings. If the Buddhist scriptures substantially represent what the Buddha taught and the Buddha was a Manifestation but his teachings disagree with the Bahai faith then there is a real problem. I guess Bahais either have to reinterpret the Buddhist teachings in a radically different way from the way Buddhists do. Or Bahais have to reject at least certain aspects of the Buddhist scriptures. Peace Gilberto pharoah is just a leaf on a burning bush __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Holy of Holies = Perennial Wisdom?,
Gilberto: Ok, I believe you. But then when you are in your Bahai paradigm, and read that the Buddha is identified with being a Manifestation, but the teachings of real live Buddhists in the world don't seem to be consistent with the Bahai teachings, I'm not sure what you do. Do you bracket the paradigm of the real live Buddhists away from the Bahai paradigm so that they are never compared with one another? Or do you do something else? Many Buddhists do not believe in concept of God but Buddha indeed believed in God. There a very scholary book on this subject called The God of Buddha by Jamshed Fozdar. He refers to Buddhist scriptures in Pali and Scanscrit and proves that Buddha indeed believed in God. For example, when Buddha talks about cause and effect, He says that there is a Causeless Cause of all the causes. Living in a Buddhist country, I know Buddhists believe in lots of superstitions and nonsense man-made teachings but no one can conclude that such teachings are from Buddha. Actually some branches of Mahayan Buddhism indeed believe in God. Regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice
Dear Ahang, you wrote: --- Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it at all times, and as its Head. In that formulation, why wouldn't the infallibility of the House come through the Guardian? what makes you so certain that Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it all the time? I have not read all the posts in this thread, so I may be making a stupid comment here. I thought this too, until someone suggested to me that the guidance of the first Guardian as laid down in numerous letters could be seen as that there is still a Guardian, and that the Universal House of Justice consults with the Guardian when they consult his letters. __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Scope of the House of Justice
Dear Susan, you wrote: What the rest of the Baha'i community did was go back to what Baha'u'llah said was to happen if His lineage ran out before the election of the Universal House of Justice. This was stated in the Aqdas: "Endowments dedicated to charity revert to God, the Revealer of Signs. None hath the right to dispose of them without leave from Him Who is the Dawning-place of Revelation. After Him, this authority shall pass to the Aghsán, and after them to the House of Justice--should it be established in the world by then--that they may use these endowments for the benefit of the Places which have been exalted in this Cause, and for whatsoever hath been enjoined upon them by Him Who is the God of might and power. Otherwise, the endowments shall revert to the people of Bahá who speak not except by His leave and judge not save in accordance with what God hath decreed in this Tablet--lo, they are the champions of victory betwixt heaven and earth--that they may use them in the manner that hath been laid down in the Book by God, the Mighty, the Bountiful." I think this verse in Kitab-i-Aqdas is just referring to the matter of endowmwnt (vaqf and oqaf) and how it should be handled. Why should one relate it to Guardian? I have also heard some Baha'is saying that by this verse Baha'u'llah indeed talked about the institution of Guardianship. Personally I think this verse is not saying anything about this institution or what you're saying above. Do you have any authorized comments about this verse that I may have not seen. That is pretty much what we did until the Universal House of Justice was elected in 1963. Note that Baha'u'llah assumes here thatthe House of Justice can operate without an "Aghsan" (a descendent of Baha'u'llah) which the Will and Testament stipulated a Guardian had to be. As far as I understand Baha'u'llah never mentions about the Institution of Guardian. Abdu'l-Baha created this institution and I guess it was meant to be temporary. Regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Scope of the House of Justice
I thought this too, until someone suggested to me that the guidance of the first Guardian as laid down in numerous letters could be seen as that there is still a Guardian, and that the Universal House of Justice consults with the Guardian when they consult his letters. Dear Janine, I think the Guardian's interpretations continue to serve the function of the Guardianship such that were the House to ignore them they would essentially be 'mutilating' the Cause by divorcing it from the Guardianship. However, the Will and Testament makes provisions for a continuing line of Guardians by stating how they are to be selected, etc. That didn't happen because all those who might have been eligible violated the Covenant. In other words, if there isn't a continuing line of Guardians it was because of the sinfullness of some of the believers, not any lack of ismat on Abdu'l-Baha's part. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Scope of the House of Justice
Because Baha'u'llah makes no mention of the Institution of the Guardianship by name in His Writings; and because even those references in His Writings to a hereditary successor are limited to Him Who hath branched from this mighty Stock, Him Who hath branched from this Ancient Root, and the Aghsan; Shoghi Effendi needed to spend some time explaining to the friends that the Institution of the Guardianship was rooted in Baha'u'llah's original intentions for His World Order, and was not an innovation brought into being by the Master. In fact, this was the very first subject addressed by Shoghi Effendi in the first of his World Order letters: The validity of institutions that stand inextricably interwoven with the Faith of Baha'u'llah, institutions which stand at the very basis of the World Order ushered in by Baha'u'llah. (WOB 3) The Guardian then explains, in his magnificent way, the inter-relationship between the Most Holy Book and the Master's Will; and that Baha'u'llah deliberately left a gap which the Master's Will fills. (WOB 4). Though Baha'u'llah anticipates these institutions they are unspecified in the Aqdas. Then the Guardian uses two crucial words to specify that the institutions specified in the Master's Will were not an innovation brought about after the Master's passing, but had their origins in the Mind of Baha'u'llah Himself: Divorced and mutilated. The Guardian states that to *divorce* what Abdu'l-Baha has revealed in His Will from the Teachings of Baha'u'llah would be an unpardonable affront to the Master's fidelity to Baha'u'llah. (WOB 3) The Guardian also states that the system of Baha'i administration is not an innovation but is derived from the Will and from the Most Holy Book. To dissociate this administration from the rest of the Teachings brought by Baha'u'llah would be, he states, tantamount to a *mutilation* of the body of the Cause. (WOB 4) So Shoghi Effendi took the time to explain with perfect clarity that the Guardianship was not something separate from Baha'u'llah's original plan. The Guardian restates and elaborates this point, in his most massively misunderstood statement, in the Dispensation: Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Baha'u'llah would be mutilated... (WOB 148) This is not a statement about what would happen if the Guardian died without a successor. Read it in context (WOB 147 ff.) It is a statement that builds on what the Guardian had written in his first World Order letter, quoted above: The Institution of the Guardianship is rooted in the general scheme of Baha'i Dispensation (WOB 4) brought by Baha'u'llah; and to divorce it from Baha'u'llah's original intent would be a mutilation of the body of the Cause. (WOB 5 and 148). With the interpretive guidance of the Guardian, we were able to see those allusions in Baha'u'llah's Writings to this sacred institution. In support of the primacy of the hereditary Guardianship, Shoghi Effendi also quotes from a Tablet of the Master concerning intestate succession to emphasize the importance of the hereditary office of the Guardianship: ...In all the divine Dispensations the eldest son hath been given extraordinary distinctions. Even the station of prophethood hath been his birthright... The full Tablet can be read at http://bahai-library.com/?file=abdulbaha_inheritance_bwc.html Though the subject of the Tablet was inheritance, Shoghi Effendi applies it to the sacred institution of the Guardianship. In like manner, though the subject of Paragraph 42 of the Aqdas is the wakf, the endowments dedicated to charity, the contents have reference to the institution of the Guardianship, and to the all-important matter of the succession after the Manifestation. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Scope of the House of Justice
Abdu'l-Baha envisioned a Universal House of Justice that would have a living Guardian serving on it at all times, and as its Head. In that formulation, why wouldn't the infallibility of the House come through the Guardian? I would like to offer some thoughts on this subject raised by Haji Mirza Jinab-i-Ahang Texas-i. The House of Justice has itself confirmed that Shoghi Effendi obviously envisaged the House of Justice and the Guardian functioning together. (Messages 1963-1986, p. 87) The House of Justice continues, however, that it cannot logically be deduced from this that one is unable to function in the absence of the other. During the whole thirty-six years of his Guardianship Shoghi Effendi functioned without the Universal House of Justice. Now the Universal House of Justice must function without the Guardian... (Ibid.) The House of Justice has published a number of quotations from the Master and from Shoghi Effendi that state that the divine guidance flowing to the Universal House of Justice comes through its elected members and is not derived from the Guardian: Nowhere is it stated that the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice is by virtue of the Guardian's membership or presence on that body. Indeed, Abdu'l-Bah in His Will and Shoghi Effendi in his 'Dispensation of Bah'u'llh' have both explicitly stated that the elected members of the Universal House of Justice in consultation are recipients of unfailing Divine Guidance. (Messages, p. 157) This is one of the themes throughout the three great letters of the House of Justice on the subject of the House of Justice and the Guardian. This is not to minimize the role of the Guardian on that Body. As the Master's title is Ghusn-i-Azam, Most Mighty Branch, Shoghi Effendi's title given him by the Master in His Will is Ghusn-i-Mumtaz which he translates as Chosen Branch. The word mumtaz has a range of meanings, and it appears again in the Master's Will in this verse, translated by Shoghi Effendi as distinguished: By this body all the difficult problems are to be resolved and the Guardian of the Cause of God is its sacred head and the distinguished member for life of that body. (The Will and Testament, p. 14) As the House says, though the vision of the Master was that these institutions would function together, the view that the infallibility of the House was through the Guardian is not supported in the Writings. There are several statements in the Master's Tablets and in the Guardian's writings that expressly state that infallible divine guidance flows directly to the elected members. This one is from the Will itself: Unto the Most Holy Book every one must turn and all that is not expressly recorded therein must be referred to the Universal House of Justice. That which this body, whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is verily the Truth and the Purpose of God Himself. Whoso doth deviate therefrom is verily of them that love discord, hath shown forth malice and turned away from the Lord of the Covenant. By this House is meant that Universal House of Justice *which is to be elected* from all countries, that is from those parts in the East and West where the loved ones are to be found, after the manner of the customary elections in Western countries such as those of England It is incumbent upon *these members* (of the Universal House of Justice) to gather in a certain place and deliberate upon all problems which have caused difference, questions that are obscure and matters that are not expressly recorded in the Book. Whatsoever *they* decide has the same effect as the Text itself. (Will and Testament p. 20; emphasis added). The point is made even more sharp by realizing that this verse, contained in the second part of the Will, was written when not an hour's life was left to the Master, and that there is no reference to Shoghi Effendi or to the institution of Guardianship in this second part of the Will. In a Tablet the Master refers to the guidance flowing to the body of the House of Justice whose members are elected by and known to the worldwide Baha'i community in these words: Let it not be imagined that the House of Justice will take any decision according to its own concepts and opinions. God forbid! The Supreme House of Justice will take decisions and establish laws through the inspiration and confirmation of the Holy Spirit, because it is in the safekeeping and under the shelter and protection of the Ancient Beauty, and obedience to its decisions is a bounden and essential duty and an absolute obligation, and there is no escape for anyone. Say, O People: Verily the Supreme House of Justice is under the wings of your Lord, the Compassionate, the All Merciful, that is under His protection, His care, and His shelter; for He has commanded the firm believers to obey that blessed, sanctified, and all-subduing body, whose sovereignty is divinely
