Re: Progressive Revelation Wikipedia quote
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone familiar with the correct chronology for some of the dates quoted? From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:06 PM Subject: Progressive Revelation Wikipedia quote The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_of_Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_of_God http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_%28Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h No article for the Promised One Who Will Come After A Thousand Years Let's date this: Abraham circa 2000 BCE Moses circa 1700-1200 BCE (Depends on which Pharaoh you identify as the Pharaoh) Jesus circa 7 BCE - 37 CE Muhammad circa 570 CE - 632 CE Bab 1819 CE - 1850 CE Bahaullah 1817 CE - 1892 CE Promised One 2892 CE You can notice a problem in the chart that it only lists Abrahamic Manifestations, they are all mentioned in the Abdul-Baha quote below. It leaves the impression of one Manifestation appears and predicts another Manifestation - 1700 years in the future with no Manifestations in the interim. Well, to be more precise there were no Abrahamic Mnaifestations in the interim periods, but there were Manifestations. The timeline above assumes only Abrahamic Manifestations, yet non-Abrahamic Manifestations appear in time periods between Abrahamic Manifestations. We are currently in a period of no new Abrahamic Manifestations for 1000 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha Dates are harder to come by: Krishna circa before 6000 BCE - 500 BCE (before Abraham, between Abraham and Moses, between Moses and Jesus) Zoroaster circa before 6000 BCE - 500 BCE (before Abraham, between Abraham and Moses, between Moses and Jesus) Buddha circa 1050 BCE - 322 BCE (between Moses and Jesus) The above dates are all based on a desire for accuracy without any care for precision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_twenty-eight_Buddhas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navnath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basava http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Ravidass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_gurus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadu_Dayal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayya_Vaikundar Dates for some of the above (Mahavira between Moses and Jesus, all others between Muhammad and Bab) Mahavira circa 599 BCE - 527 BCE Matsyendranath circa 800 CE - 1000 CE Basava aka Bhakti Bhandari Basavanna aka Basaveshwara 1134 CE -1196 CE Guru Ravidassia 1376 CE - 1520 CE Kabir 1440 CE - 1580 CE Sikh gurus 1469 CE - 1708 CE (or Present if you count the eleventh) Dadu Dayal 1544 CE - 1603 CE Ayya Vaikundar circa 1809 CE - 1851 CE That list just gives Dharmic/Indian religions, but there are other categories as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_founders_of_religious_traditions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Paganism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[7][8] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[7] The general theme of the successive and continuous religions founded by Manifestations of God is that there is an evolutionary tendency, and that each Manifestation of God brings a larger measure of revelation (or religion) to humankind than the previous one.[9] The differences in the revelation brought by the Manifestations of God is stated
Re: Progressive Revelation Wikipedia quote
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Stop worrying about the chronology! The one you're using is fine. Go back and re-read the Kitab-i-Iqan a couple of times instead. -Original Message- From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:02 am Subject: Re: Progressive Revelation Wikipedia quote The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone familiar with the correct chronology for some of the dates quoted? From: Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:06 PM Subject: Progressive Revelation Wikipedia quote The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_of_Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_of_God http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_%28Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27u%27ll%C3%A1h No article for the Promised One Who Will Come After A Thousand Years Let's date this: Abraham circa 2000 BCE Moses circa 1700-1200 BCE (Depends on which Pharaoh you identify as the Pharaoh) Jesus circa 7 BCE - 37 CE Muhammad circa 570 CE - 632 CE Bab 1819 CE - 1850 CE Bahaullah 1817 CE - 1892 CE Promised One 2892 CE You can notice a problem in the chart that it only lists Abrahamic Manifestations, they are all mentioned in the Abdul-Baha quote below. It leaves the impression of one Manifestation appears and predicts another Manifestation - 1700 years in the future with no Manifestations in the interim. Well, to be more precise there were no Abrahamic Mnaifestations in the interim periods, but there were Manifestations. The timeline above assumes only Abrahamic Manifestations, yet non-Abrahamic Manifestations appear in time periods between Abrahamic Manifestations. We are currently in a period of no new Abrahamic Manifestations for 1000 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha Dates are harder to come by: Krishna circa before 6000 BCE - 500 BCE (before Abraham, between Abraham and Moses, between Moses and Jesus) Zoroaster circa before 6000 BCE - 500 BCE (before Abraham, between Abraham and Moses, between Moses and Jesus) Buddha circa 1050 BCE - 322 BCE (between Moses and Jesus) The above dates are all based on a desire for accuracy without any care for precision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_twenty-eight_Buddhas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navnath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basava http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Ravidass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_gurus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadu_Dayal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayya_Vaikundar Dates for some of the above (Mahavira between Moses and Jesus, all others between Muhammad and Bab) Mahavira circa 599 BCE - 527 BCE Matsyendranath circa 800 CE - 1000 CE Basava aka Bhakti Bhandari Basavanna aka Basaveshwara 1134 CE -1196 CE Guru Ravidassia 1376 CE - 1520 CE Kabir 1440 CE - 1580 CE Sikh gurus 1469 CE - 1708 CE (or Present if you count the eleventh) Dadu Dayal 1544 CE - 1603 CE Ayya Vaikundar circa 1809 CE - 1851 CE That list just gives Dharmic/Indian religions, but there are other categories as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_founders_of_religious_traditions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_Paganism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[7][8] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last
Re: Progressive Revelation [was question about Islam]
On 5/11/06, Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilberto, I was thinking about building a matrix comparing Baha'u'llah's Laws in the Aqdas with the previous Books. I started with the issue of slavery, since you've brought this up. Please let me know if there are other verses in the Quran on the subject of slavery. I think your matrix approach might be a bit misleading. But yes, there are many other verses you left out. One good one is: 90.12] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is? [90.13] (It is) the setting free of a slave, [90.14] Or the giving of food in a day of hunger [90.15] To an orphan, having relationship, [90.16] Or to the poor man lying in the dust. [90.17] Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion. [90.18] These are the people of the right hand. So given that in the shariah there are limited ways for there to be new slaves and there are multiple ways that freeing slaves is encouraged or required, even under Islamic law it is natural for slavery to end. If the government policy wanted to act like the people of the right hand they could even buy all the slaves and free them. Peace Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation [was question about Islam]
I'll add this verse in.Why do you feel this approach may bemisleading?BTW, I don't think such fundamental laws as slavery and polygamy were every okay, but the Messengers tried to gradually get rid of the practice over time. Moses didn't allow Jews to take slaves from their own kind, Jesus didn't really say much about it, and Muhammad made it a point, like the verse below, to express that it is wrong, yet, the practice was not completely, whollyforbidden until the most recent Revelation.A fundamentalist Muslim, Christian, or Jew may argue that this and that verse suggest it is okay to have a slave under this and that condition, given there is no definitive law forbidding slavery. But in this revelation I dont think slavery will ever be an issue because it has been categorically forbidden. Gilberto Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/11/06, Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Hi Gilberto, I was thinking about building a matrix comparing Baha'u'llah's Laws in the Aqdas with the previous Books. I started with the issue of slavery, since you've brought this up. Please let me know if there are other verses in the Quran on the subject of slavery.I think your matrix approach might be a bit misleading. But yes, thereare many other verses you left out. One good one is:90.12] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?[90.13] (It is) the setting free of a slave,[90.14] Or the giving of food in a day of hunger[90.15] To an orphan, having relationship,[90.16] Or to the poor man lying in the dust.[90.17] Then he is of those who believe and charge one
another to showpatience, and charge one another to show compassion.[90.18] These are the people of the right hand.So given that in the shariah there are limited ways for there to benew slaves and there are multiple ways that freeing slaves isencouraged or required, even under Islamic law it is natural forslavery to end. If the government policy wanted to act like "thepeople of the right hand" they could even buy all the slaves and freethem.PeaceGilbertoThe information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination,
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Re: Progressive Revelation [was question about Islam]
On 5/11/06, Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, I don't think such fundamental laws as slavery and polygamy were every okay, but the Messengers tried to gradually get rid of the practice over time. I won't comment on polygamy for now. I would treat that one differently. But I would tend to agree on slavery. It's always morally problematic. So the in terms of eternal moral principles, its always been questionable. But in the past, economic necessity made it difficult to prohibit categorically. The moral principles haven't changed. But the situation has. -Gilberto The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Dear Susan, You wrote: It is just that the term itself is derived from Christianity. Well, I'm not convinced it didn't originate with Baha'u'llah... OK, call me a die-hard! ; ) The Guardian translated Gleanings, published in 1952. So, conceding that the actual phrase originated with him ... I'd now be interested in knowing when and why (to whom) the original passage was written. I don't find it in any other books. With regard to the Christian connection, both The Approaching End of The Age, by H. Grattan Guinness in 1879 AD (referenced by Khazeh) and The Bible: A Progressive Revelation by S.L. Morgan, Sr. in the 1950's (referenced by Mark) were both written after the Declaration of Baha'u'llah. Whoso reciteth, in the privacy of his chamber, the verses revealed by God, the scattering angels of the Almighty shall scatter abroad the fragrance of the words uttered by his mouth, and shall cause the heart of every righteous man to throb. Though he may, at first, remain unaware of its effect, yet the virtue of the grace vouchsafed unto him must needs sooner or later exercise its influence upon his soul. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 294) There is also the world order phrase bantered about in recent years and will no doubt also be attributed to originating in the 20th Century; however, we also have this from Baha'u'llah and translated by the Guardian: LXX. The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System -- the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed. (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 136) lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to in all the Holy Books. 1] Hinduism Krishna has promised in the Bhagavad Gita that whenever righteousness is on the decline, and unrighteousness is in the ascendant, then God, though birthless and deathless, and the Lord of all beings, manifests Himself through His own Yogamaya (divine potency) keeping His Nature (Prakrti) under control. 2 He says, For the protection of the virtuous, for the extirpation of evil-doers, and for establishing Dharma (righteousness) on a firm footing, I am born from age to age. 2] Judaism Psa 96:2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his SALVATION FROM DAY TO DAY. Psa 19:2 DAY UNTO DAY uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 3] New Testament Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; FIRST the blade, THEN the ear, AFTER that the full corn in the ear. The commentator writes FIRST THE BLADE - The green, tender shoot, that first starts out of the earth before the stalk is formed. THEN THE EAR - The original means the stalk or spire of wheat or barley, as well as the ear. THE FULL CORN - The ripe wheat. The grain swollen to its proper size. By this is denoted, undoubtedly, that grace or religion in the heart is of gradual growth. It is at first tender, feeble, perhaps almost imperceptible, like the first shootings of the grain in the earth. Perhaps also, like grain, it often lies long in the earth before there are signs of life. Like the tender grain, also, it needs care, kindness, and culture. A frost, a cold storm, or a burning sun alike injure it. So tender piety in the heart needs care, kindness, culture. It needs shelter from the frosts and storms of a cold, unfeeling world And in the Holy Qur'an 023.044 YUSUFALI: THEN SENT WE OUR MESSENGERS IN SUCCESSION: every time there came to a people their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So away with a people that will not believe! PICKTHAL: THEN WE SENT OUR MESSENGERS ONE AFTER ANOTHER. Whenever its messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk who believe not! SHAKIR: Then We sent Our messengers one after another; whenever there came to a people their messenger, they called him a liar, so We made some of them follow others and We made them stories; so away with a people who do not believe! PALMER ¶ Then we sent our Apostles one after another. Whenever its Apostle came to any nation they called him a liar; and we made some to follow others; and we made them legends; away then with a people who do not believe! SALE Afterwards we sent our Apostles, one after another. So often as their Apostle came unto any nation, they charged him with imposture: And we caused them successively to follow one another [to destruction]; and we made them [only subjects of] traditional stories. Away therefore with the unbelieving nations! RODWELL Then sent we our apostles one after another. Oft as their apostle presented himself to a nation, they treated him as a liar; and we caused one nation to follow another; and we made them the burden of a tale. Away then with the people who believe not! __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:48:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. I think about A thief in the night and the related interpretations of the Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected the coming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). I mean that would make a big difference in terms of whether switching calendars on him is a reasonable thing to do. Did he come up with the number 1260, and then pick the wrong start date. Or did he get 1260 AD some other way? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Never mind. Joachim gets 1260 from the 42 weeks of Daniel. Which I think is the same as the Millerites and Sears. So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read the Biblical prophecy. And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan. Peace Gilberto On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:13:54 -0500, Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:48:46 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. I think about A thief in the night and the related interpretations of the Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected the coming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). I mean that would make a big difference in terms of whether switching calendars on him is a reasonable thing to do. Did he come up with the number 1260, and then pick the wrong start date. Or did he get 1260 AD some other way? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Gilberto, At 10:28 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read the Biblical prophecy. `Abdu'l-Baha was reported to have said: The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation. -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220 What do they symbolize? IMO, they symbolize the meanings in the minds of God, the writer, or the interpreter. In other words, prophecies, like all scriptural texts, whether their contents are clearly stated or ambiguous, have no independent meaning. And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan. And they continue to do so. Full preterists believe that prophecies *prove* that Christ returned once and for all in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe they demonstrate that Christ returned in 70 AD and will return again in the future. Premillennialists, or futurists, argue that most biblical prophecies are fulfilled in the times immediately preceding the millennium. Historicists contend that prophecies have had a gradual fulfillment. The meanings are in the minds of the interpreters, not in the texts. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:48:56 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gilberto, At 10:28 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: So all of this isn't really independent confirmation. It all just depends on how you read the Biblical prophecy. `Abdu'l-Baha was reported to have said: The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation. -- Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.220 That seems like a really counter-intuitive juxtaposition of ideas. If the scriptures are just inkblots which can mean anything, then it doesn't makes sense that an authority can come in and tell you what they mean. On the other hand, if the authority is really an authority (like they have good connections with the author) then their interpretation would at least partially convey what the text *really* means (what the author had in mind). At least that's in the case of scripture. (although this inkblot perspective is growing on me. I still haven't thought through my opinion on it. By any chance, have you seen the movie Ghost Dog? It really reminds me of the inkblot perspective. There are several examples in the movie of how individuals are isolated from one another don't really communicate with one another. Instead what happens is that one character gives out signals and the other one makes reasonable inferences about what they want.) Gilberto: And over the centuries different groups have read the exact same prophecies and used them to predict the end of the world many different times. The Beast has been identified with everyone from Nero to the Pope to Luther to Hitler to Ronald Regan. Mark: And they continue to do so. Full preterists believe that prophecies *prove* that Christ returned once and for all in 70 AD. Partial preterists believe they demonstrate that Christ returned in 70 AD and will return again in the future. Premillennialists, or futurists, argue that most biblical prophecies are fulfilled in the times immediately preceding the millennium. Historicists contend that prophecies have had a gradual fulfillment. ] Gilberto: Okay, but aren't you willing to say that the Preterists are actually wrong? Or are you saying that in some sense Christ really did return in 70 AD? Peace Gilberto My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Do you know how he came up with his prediction? (I don't). Dear Gilberto, Yeah, if you read the Book of Revelations there are constant references to one thousand two hundred and sixty days. There are other references to 3 1/2 days which also figure out to 1260 if you take each day to represent a year. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
In order to get 1260 years from 3 1/2 days, you have to do a double days-to-years conversion. First you change 3 1/2 days to 3 1/2 years. Then you make 3 1/2 years (1260 days) into 1260 years. Dear Mark, Yes, of course. But if you read the Book of Revelations it becomes pretty clear that the two numbers are used interchangeably and Abdu'l-Baha was hardly the first person to notice this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
Gilberto, At 11:07 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote: That seems like a really counter-intuitive juxtaposition of ideas. If the scriptures are just inkblots which can mean anything, then it doesn't makes sense that an authority can come in and tell you what they mean. I think it indicates that, although some of the writers of the books incorporated into the Bible apparently predicted the return of Christ, much of the rest is subjective and guess work. Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. - words attributed to Jesus, cited: Matthew 25:13 On the other hand, if the authority is really an authority (like they have good connections with the author) then their interpretation would at least partially convey what the text *really* means (what the author had in mind). At least that's in the case of scripture. I don't think that texts mean anything. Authors mean something. Those who inspire authors, including God, mean something. Interpreters mean something. although this inkblot perspective is growing on me. lol. To use your analogy, all structurizations, or constructions, are, IMO, inkblots. Interpretations of those structurizations are standpoint epistemologies (Nancy Hartsock et al.). It then comes down to whether one accepts the authority of the person or persons holding to a particular standpoint. I still haven't thought through my opinion on it. By any chance, have you seen the movie Ghost Dog? No, but I just ordered the DVD from Amazon. Okay, but aren't you willing to say that the Preterists are actually wrong? Or are you saying that in some sense Christ really did return in 70 AD? It is a matter of authority. I think that the historicists come closest to the perspective taken by `Abdu'l-Baha. The full preterists are probably furthest from His perspective. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Hi, Susan, At 12:01 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote: Yes, of course. But if you read the Book of Revelations it becomes pretty clear that the two numbers are used interchangeably and Abdu'l-Baha was hardly the first person to notice this. A lot of numbers, such as 12 and 40, are repeated in the texts of the Bible. However, they are used in different contexts. I mentioned this point as an example of how `Abdu'l-Baha's interpretations, and His overall heuristics, must be accepted on faith. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
- Original Message - From: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 4:46 AM Subject: RE: Progressive Revelation In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to in all the Holy Books. Dear Khazeh, Do you have the time to post the Buddhist and Zarathustrian references of the same character? I will be most appreciative if you will post them. Thank you, Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
A lot of numbers, such as 12 and 40, are repeated in the texts of the Bible. However, they are used in different contexts. Yes, I agree. What I am suggesting is that 1260 and 3 1/2 were really interchangeable. And in this case, they are used in the same context. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:46:21 -, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a sense, if we look deeply, and carefully, with a sense of the Sacred in our heart we find Progressive Revelation adumbrated/anticipated/ alluded to in all the Holy Books. Do you have a specific definition of Progressive Revelation that one can refer to? Because looking at the passage you quote in the Quran: 023.044 YUSUFALI: THEN SENT WE OUR MESSENGERS IN SUCCESSION: every time there came to a people their messenger, they accused him of falsehood: so We made them follow each other (in punishment): We made them as a tale (that is told): So away with a people that will not believe! It says you the messengers were sent one after another but it doesn't necessarily let you say exactly how the messengers or their messages are related. Is one message higher than another? Deeper than another? Easier than another? Harder than another? Better? Is it the exact same message? For example, in Martin Ling's book What is Sufism? he talks about the various revelations but he compares them to waves coming in from the Ocean. Every once in a while, the wave comes, and leaves behind water. But the water is all the same. It comes from the same Ocean. So is that what you mean? Or are you trying to say that the water in the new wave is different from the water in the previous wave? Peace Gilberto __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
|Do you have a specific definition of Progressive Revelation |that one can refer to? Because looking at the passage you |quote in the Quran: Sure, here it is: http://studycircle.angeltowns.com/progressive.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
The term was first used by Baha'u'llah in the following quote and expanded in the second quote from Kitab-i-Aqdas footnotes: snip ... And when this process of progressive Revelation culminated in the stage at which His peerless, His most sacred, and exalted Countenance was to be unveiled to men's eyes, Dear Sandra, We talked about that passage a few months ago. The phrase translated as Progressive Revelation here is IDHA BLAGHA AL-AMR which I think more literally would be translated as this delivery of the Cause. It was the Guardian who first introduced the term Progressive Revelation into Baha'i theology and he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Dear Susan, Could you be a bit more explicit about this theory, as I'm not familiar with any possible source in Christian theology. ...he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology While I'm open to a broader understanding of the term, I feel that because the passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb.; He is indeed referring to the progressive (sequential advancing) revelations of the Manifestations of God. Granted, the Guardian elaborates on the progressive aspects of the Revelation as received by Baha'u'llah. Thanks much! lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:09:44 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Susan, Could you be a bit more explicit about this theory, as I'm not familiar with any possible source in Christian theology. ...he in turn, seems to have gotten it from Christian theology There is a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breaks human history into different periods (dispensations) where God deals with human beings in a particular way. And certain events would mark the transition points from one dispensation to another, for example, the fall, the flood, the calling of abraham, the bringing of the law from Sinai, the crucifixion, etc. Peace Gilberto -- My people are hydroponic __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:33:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a Christian doctrine known as dispensationalism which breakshuman history into different periods (dispensations) where God dealswith human beings in a particular way Dear Gilberto, This was a little different. Dispensationalism is usually associated with fundamentalism and is based on the premise that God's way of dealing with humanity changed dramatically. Ideas of Progressive Revelation in the 19th century were based more on the notion of God enfolding His nature to us overtime. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 5:06:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While I'm open to a "broader" understanding of the term, I feel that because the passage from Baha'u'llah opens with : "Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain ofsuccessive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb."; Dear Sandy, Oh I think the concept is implicit in Baha'u'llah's Writings. It is just that the term itself is derived from Christianity. Khazeh posted the following website and Table of Contents of one 19th century work on this subject on Bridges some time ago. Since it wasn't exactly a personal post, I'm sure he won't mind if I place it below. I may have to take back what I said earlier about dispensationalism, but I think its ties are more with Christian millenarianism in general. warmest, Susan The bookTHE APPROACHING END OF THE AGEVIEWED IN THE LIGHT OFHISTORY, PROPHECY, AND SCIENCEbyH. GRATTAN GUINNESSMDCCCLXXIX (1879)IS AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNEThttp://www.historicism.com/Guinness/Approaching/aeota.htmPart I.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONCHAPTER I.GOD'S REVELATION OF HIMSELF TO MAN HAS BEEN A PROGRESSIVE ONE.- TRUTH INGENERAL HAS BEEN REVEALED PROGRESSIVELY. PROPHECY, THE DIVINE HISTORY OF THEFUTURE, CONSISTS OF A SERIES OF PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS.- PRACTICAL RESULTSOFTHE COMPREHENSION AND APPLICATION OF THIS PRINCIPLE.CHAPTER II.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE RELATIVE PERIOD OF THE SECOND ADVENT OFOURLORD JESUS CHRIST.CHAPTER III.PROGRESSIVE REVELATIONS AS TO THE MILLENNIUM, THE RESURRECTION, AND THEJUDGMENT.Part II.PROGRESSIVE INTERPRETATION.CHAPTER 1.HUMAN COMPREHENSION OF DIVINE PROPHECY HAS BEEN, AND WAS INTENDED TO BEPROGRESSIVE.-THREE IMPORTANT INFERENCES FROM DANIEL XII.9. - THERE IS ABLAMELESS AND A GUILTY IGNORANCE OF THE FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY. - INSTANCESOFEACH.- REASONS FOR A PARTIAL AND TEMPORARY OBSCURITY OF PROPHECY; AND MEANSBYWHICH PROGRESSIVE COMPREHENSION OF ITS SIGNIFICATION HAS BEEN GRANTED.CHAPTER II.CONSIDERATION OF CERTAIN BROAD PRINCIPLES, ON WHICH THE APOCALYPSE IS TO BEINTERPRETED.-IT IS A SYMBOLIC PROPHECY, AND MUST BE TRANSLATED INTO ORDINARYLANGUAGE BEFORE IT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD.CHAPTER III.THE APOCALYPSE IS A CONTINUING PROPHECY EXTENDING FROM ITS OWN TIME, TO THECONSUMMATION OF ALL THINGS.-IMPORTANCE OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE, IN ORDER TOITSCORRECT INTERPRETATION. IT IS A PROPHECY CONCERNING THE EXPERIENCES OF THECHRISTIAN CHURCH, IN THE WORLD, AND NOT CONCERNING THOSE OF THE JEWISHNATION.Part III.FORETOLD AND FULFILLED.CHAPTER I.THE PROPHECIES OF "BABYLON," AND "THE BEAST."-REASONS FOR THE EXAMINATION OFTHESE TWO PROPHECIES. -FUNDAMENTAL, DIVINELY INTERPRETED; PRACTICALLYIMPORTANT.-BABYLON THE GREAT REPRESENTS THE APOSTATE CHURCH OF ROME.CHAPTER II.THE MAN OF SIN, OR ANTICHRIST.A GREAT FOURFOLD PROPHECY OF FUNDAMENTAL IMPORTANCE (DAN 7:7-27, REV 13:1-9,REV 17, 2THESS 2).- THE ROMAN POWER.-ITS LAST FORM AS PREDICTED HERE.-INDIVIDUAL AND DYNASTIC USE OF THE WORD "KING."- AN APOSTATE, BLASPHEMOUS,ANDPERSECUTING POWER,- EXACTLY ANSWERING TO THE ONE HERE PREDICTED, HAS BEEN INEXISTENCE FOR MORE THAN TWELVE CENTURIES, IN THE SUCCESSION OF THE POPES OFROME-ORIGIN OF THIS POWER.-ITS MORAL CHARACTER.- ITS SELF-EXALTINGUTTERANCES.-ITS SELF- EXALTING ACTS. -ITS SUBTLETIES; --FALSE DOCTRINES, AND LYINGWONDERS.-ITS IDOLATRIES. -ITS DOMINION.-ITS PERSECUTION OF THE SAINTS.-ITSDURATION.-ITSDOOM.Part IV.INQUIRY INTO THE DIVINE SYSTEM OF TIMES AND SEASONS NATURAL AND REVEALED.SECTION I. SOLAR AND LUNAR DOMINION CAUSAL AND CHRONOLOGICAL.CHAPTER I.CHRONOLOGY, BIBLICAL AND NATURAL. IS THERE HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO? SOLARANDLUNAR DOMINION IN THE INORGANIC WORLD. SOLI-LUNAR CONTROL OF TERRESTRIALREVOLUTIONS. WINDS. RAINS, OCEAN CURRENTS. -TIDES, ELECTRIC AND MAGNETICVARIATIONS.CHAPTER II.SOLI-LUNAR DOMINION IN THE ORGANIC WORLD. EFFECTS OF LIGHT AND HEAT ON THEDEVELOPMENT AND DISTRIBUTION OF PLANTS AND ANIMALS AND OF THE HUMAN RACE.-DIURNAL AND SEASONAL CHANGES IN RELATION TO HEALTH AND DISEASE.SECTION II.THE LAW OF COMPLETION IN WEEKS.CHAPTER I.THE WEEK IN RELATION TO THE PERIODICITY OF VITAL PHENOMENA. PERIODICITY INTHEDEVELOPMENT OF INSECTS, FISHES, BIRDS AND MAMMALIA.-PERIODICITY IN THEGROWTHAND FUNCTIONAL ACTIVITY OF MANKIND IN HEALTH AND IN DISEASE.CHAPTER II.THE WEEK IN SCRIPTURE. THERE IS - A CHRONOLOGICAL SYSTEM IN SCRIPTURE.-IT ISASYSTEM OF WEEKS.- THIS SYSTEM IS TRACEABLE THROUGHOUT THE LAW, THE PROPHETS,AND THE GOSPEL.-THE WEEK IN THE MOSAIC RITUAL.-THE WEEK IN. JEWISHHISTORY.-THEWEEK IN PROPHECY.-THE WEEK OF DAYS -OF WEEKS-OF MONTHS-OF YEARS-OF WEEKS OFYEARS-OF YEARS OF YEARS-OF MILLENARIES.CHAPTER III.THE WEEK IN HISTORY.SCRIPTURE THE CHART OF HISTORY.-PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS AS TO HISTORIC ANDPROPHETIC CHRONOLOGY.- THE AGE OF THE HUMAN RACE. -OLD TESTAMENTCHRONOLOGY.-THE HEBREW AND THE SEPTUAGINT CHRONOLOGY COMPARED.- HOW ARE WE TO INTERPRETTHESYMBOLIC
Re: Progressive Revelation
Hi, Gilberto, At 10:54 PM 12/20/2004, you wrote: If you didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christian concept you were thinking of which was similar to progressive revelation? Here is an example: http://adams.patriot.net/~eastland/slm/ It isn't exactly either premillennial dispensationalism or Reformed covenant theology. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 10:55:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you didn't have Dispensationalism in mind, which was the Christianconcept you were thinking of which was similar to progressiverevelation? Dear Gilberto, I think progressive revelation was a much more general concept in Christianity than Dispensationalism which is rather specific. I was raised liberal Presbyterian but I heard the Bible spoken of in terms of progressive revelation when I was growing up. Indeed, modern Process Theology in some ways grows out of that. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:30:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Bahai faith isn't completely dissimilar to those groups. Ithink about "A thief in the night" and the related interpretations ofthe Millerite groups who as fundamentalists literally expected thecoming of Jesus to bring justice and righteous to the earth. Yes, and it even goes further than that. The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Progressive Revelation
Susan Maneck wrote: The first millennial movement was started during the Crusades by Joachim de Fiora who probably laid the groundwork for dispensationalism. He held that Age of the Holy Spirit would begin in the year 1260 A.D. Of course 1260 in the Muslim calendar is 1844 in the Christian one. [D.A.L.] I hadnt run across this most interesting bit of information before. Could you give a little more of this history, or perhaps point me towards some further reading? Many thanks.Dave Lambert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Progressive Revelation
In a message dated 12/21/2004 12:44:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I hadnt run across this most interesting bit of information before. Could you give a little more of this history, or perhaps point me towards some further reading? Here's some websites on him: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc06/htm/everlasting_gospel.htm http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj3y.htm warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
