By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a lot more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average JNCIE takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while there is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last count, 2 or 3 new ones minted every month).
Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled labor in the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for anything. Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, bussing tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an extra pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to take care of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't have PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. restaurants, department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really high demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these jobs pay well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and that's because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, which keeps wages low. Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So the high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. The point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must factor in the supply side as well. Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than the MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull in more than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies apply for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with them for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are maybe only 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence that it is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this still compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely possible. But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft world to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a comeback with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft might run into more trouble with the Justice Department, and this might hamstring them because they will be more worried about fighting in court than in developing their products, and competitors might use this valuable time to produce a viable competitive product (i.e. Linux with a version of Samba that is fully compatible with W2Kserver, including AD). The point is that nobody really knows what the future will bring, so it is difficult to make judgements based on what is going to happen in the future. We only know what is happening now, and right now, CCIE-level jobs still pay better than MCSE-level jobs, although admittedly the gap is not as wide as before. But the fact that the gap exists at all is prima-facie evidence that the low supply of CCIE's is compensating for the lower demand for them. ""Donald B Johnson jr"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Yeah an MCSE on every corner and 1000 Windows boxes in the building behind. > I was talking to some buddies in the last big market I worked in (I live in > a poh-dunk town now) and people with current Microsoft skills are very much > in demand. > The infrastructure guys are hurting, remember when the market went down it > was the infrastructure, Internet, and Provider companies that nose-dived, > the mom-an-pops with 200-500Workstations, 10 servers, a couple switches, an > access router and a real non-internet related business are still going > strong. They need user connectivity, (not MPLS, OC-12 or the like) they need > database access, email, and system management product specialists. I think > we all got caught in the Microsoft is OK but the really cool stuff is Cisco, > but then we found out that buying pickles and everything else on the net > wasn't flying. Yo I heard Novell is doing some really cool stuff. Reminds me > of a movie where the handsome Earl Flynn was made to walk the plank by the > ugly green-toothed pirates. > MCSE + I - till they rip the 4.0 out of my hand. > CNE 4.11 - already stripped > CCN/DP - current > CCIE 6/8/02 - first attempt > Don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ; > To: ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:45 PM > Subject: Fwd: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass but I > do > > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple > answers > > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; MCSE > or > > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my choice... > > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY > > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the other > > about > > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the MCSE > > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), however I > > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & > 2000) > > but haven't attempted any exams. > > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in the > > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology > > Overview, > > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis for > > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, > > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that was > > to > > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up a > > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really have > > been PISSED....having a qualification to THE LAB and basically only > > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was > supposed > > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > > > my .02 worth > > > > Rick > > > > In a message dated 10/1/01 12:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying, however there is a difference between > > > having to work hard for something, and having it so that there are only > > 6000 > > > of them in the world... > > > The MCSE has lost respect within the IT industry, however if you want a > > > serious admin job, it is the most sought after certification. The CCIE > > will > > > always be a well respected certification. The fact that so few people > have > > > it is in some ways harmful because human resources departments and > managers > > > outside the tech industry haven't always heard of it. I have seen > people > > > get interviews for high level network engineering positions that were > CCNAs > > > before CCIEs got the interview. This is because HR has heard of the > CCNA > > > and doesn't know what a CCIE is... > > > I'm not saying they should water down the test, nor do I believe they > are > > > doing so. However, I do believe that more is better to a certain > degree. > > > 6000 to 7000 CCIEs in the world is silly. There can very easily be 10 > > times > > > that and the demand for certified, well trained engineers will still be > > > there ;-) Just my opinion. > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Logan, Harold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:27 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > I disagree. I'm working towards the CCIE, and I want it to be hard. I > > > want to have to work for it. The last CCNP exam I took was the > > > Support/Troubleshooting exam, and I wanted my money back. The couple of > > > hours I put into studying for it were nothing but wasted time. > > > > > > In any line of work, supply and demand rule the market. The more IE's > > > there are out there, the less they'll be making. Not only that, but we > > > lowly CCNP's and CCDP's can probably expect even less. You point out > > > that there are way more doctors, lawyers, etc... well, there's more of a > > > demand for doctors and lawyers. It's a simple comparison: ask yourself > > > how many people in a given population get sick or decide to sue someone, > > > and compare that to the number of people who need a network designed. > > > > > > What's more, the easier any cert exam is to obtain, the worse its > > > reputation becomes; just ask Microsoft. It'll be years before the MCSE > > > is a respected certification again... why? Because it was too easy to > > > get. Everyone's got a story about an MCSE who talked big but couldn't > > > edit an LMHosts file, or couldn't set up a trust relationship, or > > > couldn't install a NIC. If the IE truly does get easier, how long will > > > it be before everyone has a similar story about a CCIE?I for one hope > > > Cisco keeps the lab challenging... I want the IE, but I want to work for > > > it. > > > > > > Hal Logan > > > Network Specialist / Adjunct Faculty > > > Computing and Engineering Technology > > > Manatee Community College > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Marshal Schoener [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:30 PM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > What is funny is that people are concerned with the > > > > possibility of 5 digit > > > > amounts of CCIEs at all. > > > > Considering there are way more doctors, lawyers, salesman, > > > > brokers, etc etc > > > > etc etc etc in just about every small city than there are > > > > CCIEs world wide, > > > > it doesn't seem something very logical to worry about. > > > > In fact, to a certain degree it is better off to have more > > > > than there are > > > > now for sales-marketing reasons... > > > > Another thing is that just because the format changes, > > > > doesn't mean the test > > > > is going to become easier. It may in fact become harder... > > > > > > > > For those of you that are really worried about this (which I > > > > honestly find > > > > hard to imagine) why don't you look into the specializations. > > > > > > > > Regards, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=21727&t=3485 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
