And the alien ships could possibly land tomorrow, but I'm not mowing "LAND HERE!" in my lawn in anticipation of it happening. I not going to go out and buy Juniper's stock just on the off-chance that they MIGHT be able to consistently build a better product, or they MIGHT eventually be able to run Cisco out of town on a rail, or that they MIGHT be able to overcome the worst economy in decades. It would be just SWELL if life worked that way, but I'm not placing any bets just yet.
-----Original Message----- From: nrf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] About Juniper losing market share. Well, the same could be said for Microsoft or Cisco or anybody else. Sure Juniper might disappear. On the other hand, Juniper might take over the core routing world, and become dominant in edge routing. Why not? Cisco was able to take over the networking industry in a relatively short amount of time (they only IPO'd in 1986, they were dominant by the mid-90's), and if Juniper has the consensus best technology in the industry, then is it really impossible for Juniper to do what Cisco did? Now I am not saying that they are guaranteed to do so, I'm just saying that it's possible. If this happens, then you would agree that anybody who knows Juniper will be sitting pretty. The point is, who's to say what is going to happen in the future? All anybody really can say for sure is that Juniper has a strong position in the marketplace, and that position could get stronger or weaker in the future. Who knows? About your comments on experience. Of course it is true that experience is important. But at the same time, it is also true that, holding experience constant, some skills are quite frankly more valuable than others, and that could be due to that skill being in high demand, or in short supply, or both. For example JNCIE's tend to have many years of experience in high-end core backbone routing, whereas MCSE's tend to have experience in desktop management/LAN sys-admin, etc. I believe it is the case that years of core backbone routing are on average more valuable than an equivalent number of years of being a LAN sys-admin. Now I know that might make some of you upset, and you will point out that some MCSE sys-admins make huge amounts of money, and of course that is true. But I'm just talking about the averages here. The reason for this discrepancy is clear. It is damn hard to break into the world of core routing, whereas it is relatively easy to become a sysadmin. Therefore there is a much larger pool of sysadmins that overcomes the greater demand for sysadmins. The inexorable laws of supply and demand - a high demand can be overwhelmed by an even higher supply. I'll give you an extreme example. People with 20 years of experience in practicing medicine or practicing law are going to make more on average than somebody with 20 years of experience in manual labor. Why? It's not because there is more demand for medicine or law than there is manual labor, because that's obviously not true. There is clearly more demand for manual labor than there is demand for doctors or lawyers. So it's not the demand side of the equation that is at play here. Rather it's supply - there are so many more manual laborers than there are doctors and lawyers, and this supply 'glut' overwhelmes the greater demand for them. The point here is that even with equivalent experience, some skills are more valuable than others, and the reason for that is often due to constricted supply - a skill may be valuable not because there is a gigantic demand for it, but because quite frankly, nobody else has that skill. I know that seems harsh, but that's reality. ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as > they > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to > come. > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience > is a bit much, so i am assuming > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > knowledge/sill set which varies > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to fork > out for employees and what > they bring to the company. > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a > > lot > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > > JNCIE > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > > there > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last > > count, > > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). > > > > Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled labor in > > the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for > > anything. Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, bussing > > tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an > > extra > > pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to take > > care > > of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't have > > PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. restaurants, > > department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really high > > demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these jobs > > pay > > well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and > > that's > > because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, > > which > > keeps wages low. Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So the > > high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. The > > point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must factor in > > the supply side as well. > > > > Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than the > > MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull in > > more > > than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies apply > > for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with them > > for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are maybe > > only > > 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence that > > it > > is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this still > > compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. > > > > Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and > > ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely possible. > > But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft > > world > > to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a comeback > > with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft might > > run > > into more trouble with the Justice Department, and this might hamstring > > them > > because they will be more worried about fighting in court than in > > developing > > their products, and competitors might use this valuable time to produce a > > viable competitive product (i.e. Linux with a version of Samba that is > > fully > > compatible with W2Kserver, including AD). The point is that nobody really > > knows what the future will bring, so it is difficult to make judgements > > based on what is going to happen in the future. We only know what is > > happening now, and right now, CCIE-level jobs still pay better than > > MCSE-level jobs, although admittedly the gap is not as wide as before. > > But > > the fact that the gap exists at all is prima-facie evidence that the low > > supply of CCIE's is compensating for the lower demand for them. > > > > > > > > ""Donald B Johnson jr"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > Yeah an MCSE on every corner and 1000 Windows boxes in the building > > behind. > > > I was talking to some buddies in the last big market I worked in (I live > > in > > > a poh-dunk town now) and people with current Microsoft skills are very > > much > > > in demand. > > > The infrastructure guys are hurting, remember when the market went down > > it > > > was the infrastructure, Internet, and Provider companies that > > nose-dived, > > > the mom-an-pops with 200-500Workstations, 10 servers, a couple switches, > > an > > > access router and a real non-internet related business are still going > > > strong. They need user connectivity, (not MPLS, OC-12 or the like) they > > need > > > database access, email, and system management product specialists. I > > think > > > we all got caught in the Microsoft is OK but the really cool stuff is > > Cisco, > > > but then we found out that buying pickles and everything else on the net > > > wasn't flying. Yo I heard Novell is doing some really cool stuff. > > Reminds > > me > > > of a movie where the handsome Earl Flynn was made to walk the plank by > > the > > > ugly green-toothed pirates. > > > MCSE + I - till they rip the 4.0 out of my hand. > > > CNE 4.11 - already stripped > > > CCN/DP - current > > > CCIE 6/8/02 - first attempt > > > Don > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ; > > > To: ; ; > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Fwd: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > > > > > > > On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass but > > I > > > do > > > > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple > > > answers > > > > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > > > > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; > > MCSE > > > or > > > > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my > > choice... > > > > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY > > > > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the > > other > > > > about > > > > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the > > MCSE > > > > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), > > however > > I > > > > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & > > > 2000) > > > > but haven't attempted any exams. > > > > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in > > the > > > > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology > > > > Overview, > > > > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis > > for > > > > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, > > > > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that > > was > > > > to > > > > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up > > a > > > > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really > > have > > > > been PISSED....having a qualification to THE LAB and basically only > > > > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was > > > supposed > > > > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > > > > > > > my .02 worth > > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/1/01 12:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying, however there is a difference > > between > > > > > having to work hard for something, and having it so that there are > > only > > > > 6000 > > > > > of them in the world... > > > > > The MCSE has lost respect within the IT industry, however if you > > want > > a > > > > > serious admin job, it is the most sought after certification. The > > CCIE > > > > will > > > > > always be a well respected certification. The fact that so few > > people > > > have > > > > > it is in some ways harmful because human resources departments and > > > managers > > > > > outside the tech industry haven't always heard of it. I have seen > > > people > > > > > get interviews for high level network engineering positions that > > were > > > CCNAs > > > > > before CCIEs got the interview. This is because HR has heard of the > > > CCNA > > > > > and doesn't know what a CCIE is... > > > > > I'm not saying they should water down the test, nor do I believe > > they > > > are > > > > > doing so. However, I do believe that more is better to a certain > > > degree. > > > > > 6000 to 7000 CCIEs in the world is silly. There can very easily be > > 10 > > > > times > > > > > that and the demand for certified, well trained engineers will still > > be > > > > > there ;-) Just my opinion. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Logan, Harold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:27 PM > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. I'm working towards the CCIE, and I want it to be hard. > > I > > > > > want to have to work for it. The last CCNP exam I took was the > > > > > Support/Troubleshooting exam, and I wanted my money back. The couple > > of > > > > > hours I put into studying for it were nothing but wasted time. > > > > > > > > > > In any line of work, supply and demand rule the market. The more > > IE's > > > > > there are out there, the less they'll be making. Not only that, but > > we > > > > > lowly CCNP's and CCDP's can probably expect even less. You point out > > > > > that there are way more doctors, lawyers, etc... well, there's more > > of > > a > > > > > demand for doctors and lawyers. It's a simple comparison: ask > > yourself > > > > > how many people in a given population get sick or decide to sue > > someone, > > > > > and compare that to the number of people who need a network > > designed. > > > > > > > > > > What's more, the easier any cert exam is to obtain, the worse its > > > > > reputation becomes; just ask Microsoft. It'll be years before the > > MCSE > > > > > is a respected certification again... why? Because it was too easy > > to > > > > > get. Everyone's got a story about an MCSE who talked big but > > couldn't > > > > > edit an LMHosts file, or couldn't set up a trust relationship, or > > > > > couldn't install a NIC. If the IE truly does get easier, how long > > will > > > > > it be before everyone has a similar story about a CCIE?I for one > > hope > > > > > Cisco keeps the lab challenging... I want the IE, but I want to work > > for > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Hal Logan > > > > > Network Specialist / Adjunct Faculty > > > > > Computing and Engineering Technology > > > > > Manatee Community College > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Marshal Schoener [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:30 PM > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is funny is that people are concerned with the > > > > > > possibility of 5 digit > > > > > > amounts of CCIEs at all. > > > > > > Considering there are way more doctors, lawyers, salesman, > > > > > > brokers, etc etc > > > > > > etc etc etc in just about every small city than there are > > > > > > CCIEs world wide, > > > > > > it doesn't seem something very logical to worry about. > > > > > > In fact, to a certain degree it is better off to have more > > > > > > than there are > > > > > > now for sales-marketing reasons... > > > > > > Another thing is that just because the format changes, > > > > > > doesn't mean the test > > > > > > is going to become easier. It may in fact become harder... > > > > > > > > > > > > For those of you that are really worried about this (which I > > > > > > honestly find > > > > > > hard to imagine) why don't you look into the specializations. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=21770&t=3485 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
