You have a fundamental flaw in your comparison of sales. You are only looking at 1 year of sales. If you compare the amount of equipment currently running you will find a much greater percentage than 22:1. I'm sure there are plenty of JNCIE's that make 200+ a year. But, I am just doubting that is an average that's all. I do not believe that the average JNCIE makes double what a CCIE makes. If that's really true I'm going to go learn Juniper.
John Kaberna CCIE #7146 NETCG Inc. Cisco Premier Partner www.netcginc.com (415) 750-3800 __________________ CCIE Security Training www.netcginc.com/training.htm ""nrf"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Well, I can't prove that salary number to you. But just consider some of > these facts. There are only 17 JNCIE's in the world right now . The demand > for Juniper skills is clearly there, as according to Yahoo Finance, Juniper > sold $1 billion of revenue in the last 12 months, so clearly somebody has > been buying their stuff. Again, according to Yahoo, Cisco sold $22 billion > of stuff in the last 12 months, for a ratio of 22:1 in sales vis-a-vis > Juniper. A very simplistic assumption would be that if Cisco sells 22 > times more stuff, then there should be 22 times more CCIE's than JNCIE's for > the supply-demand curves of each to be equivalent. Yet right now, there are > about 6500 CCIE's, for a ratio of about 380:1, or about 17 times higher than > what would be the case if the supply-demand curves were equivalent. > > > Now, we both know that CCIE's make good money. There is a lot of dispute > about exactly how much, but we both know it's rather high. Now, consider a > situation where the number of CCIE's was decreased to 1/17 of what it is > now. In such a world. I don't think it is at all outrageous to think that > CCIE's would make $225,000 a year, or even more, in that kind of world. > > Now I actually think that the above assumption is actually biased in favor > of Cisco. This is because quite a bit of their revenue is drawn from > products that have nothing to do with the CCIE program. For example the ONS > optical stuff. Or IP telephony. Sales of this gear would imply a greater > demand for people who know those skills, but not necessarily CCIE's (I, for > example, know almost nothing about the ONS line). Whereas Juniper > basically sells only routers, and router components. So there is a much > clearer link between the JNCIE and Juniper sales than there is the CCIE and > Cisco sales. I would actually argue that the real ratio of CCIE's to JNCIE"s > should actually be substantially less than 22:1, which therefore makes the > accompanying analysis even more stark and slanted in favor of the JNCIE. > > > > > > > ""John Kaberna"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > I'd like to add that I highly doubt that any of the JNCIE's have little to > > no experience. It's not like there is a ton of training materials and > > bootcamps out there. The JNCIE's have to rely on real experience far more > > than the CCIE or any other cert. But, I do think that 225k as an average > is > > very high. I'd be willing to be it's not within 50k of that number. > > > > John Kaberna > > CCIE #7146 > > NETCG Inc. > > Cisco Premier Partner > > www.netcginc.com > > (415) 750-3800 > > > > __________________ > > CCIE Security Training > > www.netcginc.com/training.htm > > > > > > ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons > as > > > they > > > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years > to > > > come. > > > > > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no > experience > > > is a bit much, so i am assuming > > > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > > > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > > > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > > > knowledge/sill set which varies > > > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > > > > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to > > fork > > > out for employees and what > > > they bring to the company. > > > > > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > > > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of > a > > > > lot > > > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > > > > JNCIE > > > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > > > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > > > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > > > > there > > > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > > > > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last > > > > count, > > > > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). > > > > > > > > Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled > labor > > in > > > > the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for > > > > anything. Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, > bussing > > > > tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an > > > > extra > > > > pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to > take > > > > care > > > > of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't > > have > > > > PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. > restaurants, > > > > department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really > > high > > > > demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these > jobs > > > > pay > > > > well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and > > > > that's > > > > because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, > > > > which > > > > keeps wages low. Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So > > the > > > > high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. > > The > > > > point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must > factor > > in > > > > the supply side as well. > > > > > > > > Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than > the > > > > MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull > in > > > > more > > > > than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies > > apply > > > > for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with > > them > > > > for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are > maybe > > > > only > > > > 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence > > that > > > > it > > > > is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this > still > > > > compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. > > > > > > > > Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and > > > > ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely > > possible. > > > > But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft > > > > world > > > > to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a > comeback > > > > with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft > might > > > > run > > > > into more trouble with the Justice Department, and this might > hamstring > > > > them > > > > because they will be more worried about fighting in court than in > > > > developing > > > > their products, and competitors might use this valuable time to > produce > > a > > > > viable competitive product (i.e. Linux with a version of Samba that is > > > > fully > > > > compatible with W2Kserver, including AD). The point is that nobody > > really > > > > knows what the future will bring, so it is difficult to make > judgements > > > > based on what is going to happen in the future. We only know what is > > > > happening now, and right now, CCIE-level jobs still pay better than > > > > MCSE-level jobs, although admittedly the gap is not as wide as before. > > > > But > > > > the fact that the gap exists at all is prima-facie evidence that the > low > > > > supply of CCIE's is compensating for the lower demand for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ""Donald B Johnson jr"" wrote in message > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > > > Yeah an MCSE on every corner and 1000 Windows boxes in the building > > > > behind. > > > > > I was talking to some buddies in the last big market I worked in (I > > live > > > > in > > > > > a poh-dunk town now) and people with current Microsoft skills are > very > > > > much > > > > > in demand. > > > > > The infrastructure guys are hurting, remember when the market went > > down > > > > it > > > > > was the infrastructure, Internet, and Provider companies that > > > > nose-dived, > > > > > the mom-an-pops with 200-500Workstations, 10 servers, a couple > > switches, > > > > an > > > > > access router and a real non-internet related business are still > going > > > > > strong. They need user connectivity, (not MPLS, OC-12 or the like) > > they > > > > need > > > > > database access, email, and system management product specialists. I > > > > think > > > > > we all got caught in the Microsoft is OK but the really cool stuff > is > > > > Cisco, > > > > > but then we found out that buying pickles and everything else on the > > net > > > > > wasn't flying. Yo I heard Novell is doing some really cool stuff. > > > > Reminds > > > > me > > > > > of a movie where the handsome Earl Flynn was made to walk the plank > by > > > > the > > > > > ugly green-toothed pirates. > > > > > MCSE + I - till they rip the 4.0 out of my hand. > > > > > CNE 4.11 - already stripped > > > > > CCN/DP - current > > > > > CCIE 6/8/02 - first attempt > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: ; > > > > > To: ; ; > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:45 PM > > > > > Subject: Fwd: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass > > but > > > > I > > > > > do > > > > > > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a > couple > > > > > answers > > > > > > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > > > > > > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my > options; > > > > MCSE > > > > > or > > > > > > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my > > > > choice... > > > > > > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, > > EVERY > > > > > > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the > > > > other > > > > > > about > > > > > > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the > > > > MCSE > > > > > > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), > > > > however > > > > I > > > > > > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange > 5.5 > > & > > > > > 2000) > > > > > > but haven't attempted any exams. > > > > > > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished > > in > > > > the > > > > > > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking > Technology > > > > > > Overview, > > > > > > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You > > Dennis > > > > for > > > > > > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. > > Halibi, > > > > > > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and > > that > > > > was > > > > > > to > > > > > > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed > > up > > > > a > > > > > > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would > > really > > > > have > > > > > > been PISSED....having a qualification to THE LAB and basically > only > > > > > > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was > > > > > supposed > > > > > > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > my .02 worth > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/1/01 12:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying, however there is a difference > > > > between > > > > > > > having to work hard for something, and having it so that there > are > > > > only > > > > > > 6000 > > > > > > > of them in the world... > > > > > > > The MCSE has lost respect within the IT industry, however if you > > > > want > > > > a > > > > > > > serious admin job, it is the most sought after certification. > The > > > > CCIE > > > > > > will > > > > > > > always be a well respected certification. The fact that so few > > > > people > > > > > have > > > > > > > it is in some ways harmful because human resources departments > and > > > > > managers > > > > > > > outside the tech industry haven't always heard of it. I have > seen > > > > > people > > > > > > > get interviews for high level network engineering positions that > > > > were > > > > > CCNAs > > > > > > > before CCIEs got the interview. This is because HR has heard of > > the > > > > > CCNA > > > > > > > and doesn't know what a CCIE is... > > > > > > > I'm not saying they should water down the test, nor do I believe > > > > they > > > > > are > > > > > > > doing so. However, I do believe that more is better to a > certain > > > > > degree. > > > > > > > 6000 to 7000 CCIEs in the world is silly. There can very easily > > be > > > > 10 > > > > > > times > > > > > > > that and the demand for certified, well trained engineers will > > still > > > > be > > > > > > > there ;-) Just my opinion. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Logan, Harold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:27 PM > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. I'm working towards the CCIE, and I want it to be > > hard. > > > > I > > > > > > > want to have to work for it. The last CCNP exam I took was the > > > > > > > Support/Troubleshooting exam, and I wanted my money back. The > > couple > > > > of > > > > > > > hours I put into studying for it were nothing but wasted time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any line of work, supply and demand rule the market. The more > > > > IE's > > > > > > > there are out there, the less they'll be making. Not only that, > > but > > > > we > > > > > > > lowly CCNP's and CCDP's can probably expect even less. You point > > out > > > > > > > that there are way more doctors, lawyers, etc... well, there's > > more > > > > of > > > > a > > > > > > > demand for doctors and lawyers. It's a simple comparison: ask > > > > yourself > > > > > > > how many people in a given population get sick or decide to sue > > > > someone, > > > > > > > and compare that to the number of people who need a network > > > > designed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's more, the easier any cert exam is to obtain, the worse > its > > > > > > > reputation becomes; just ask Microsoft. It'll be years before > the > > > > MCSE > > > > > > > is a respected certification again... why? Because it was too > easy > > > > to > > > > > > > get. Everyone's got a story about an MCSE who talked big but > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > edit an LMHosts file, or couldn't set up a trust relationship, > or > > > > > > > couldn't install a NIC. If the IE truly does get easier, how > long > > > > will > > > > > > > it be before everyone has a similar story about a CCIE?I for one > > > > hope > > > > > > > Cisco keeps the lab challenging... I want the IE, but I want to > > work > > > > for > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hal Logan > > > > > > > Network Specialist / Adjunct Faculty > > > > > > > Computing and Engineering Technology > > > > > > > Manatee Community College > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Marshal Schoener [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:30 PM > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is funny is that people are concerned with the > > > > > > > > possibility of 5 digit > > > > > > > > amounts of CCIEs at all. > > > > > > > > Considering there are way more doctors, lawyers, salesman, > > > > > > > > brokers, etc etc > > > > > > > > etc etc etc in just about every small city than there are > > > > > > > > CCIEs world wide, > > > > > > > > it doesn't seem something very logical to worry about. > > > > > > > > In fact, to a certain degree it is better off to have more > > > > > > > > than there are > > > > > > > > now for sales-marketing reasons... > > > > > > > > Another thing is that just because the format changes, > > > > > > > > doesn't mean the test > > > > > > > > is going to become easier. It may in fact become harder... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those of you that are really worried about this (which I > > > > > > > > honestly find > > > > > > > > hard to imagine) why don't you look into the specializations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=21782&t=3485 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
