I'd like to add that I highly doubt that any of the JNCIE's have little to no experience. It's not like there is a ton of training materials and bootcamps out there. The JNCIE's have to rely on real experience far more than the CCIE or any other cert. But, I do think that 225k as an average is very high. I'd be willing to be it's not within 50k of that number.
John Kaberna CCIE #7146 NETCG Inc. Cisco Premier Partner www.netcginc.com (415) 750-3800 __________________ CCIE Security Training www.netcginc.com/training.htm ""Baker, Jason"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > and you forgot to add Juniper might fall over, due to economic reasons as > they > do not have a huge market share and might not be around in months/years to > come. > > and 225k for a newly certified Juniper person with little to no experience > is a bit much, so i am assuming > that the person has more skills and knowledge, so this is not really > comparable to the MCSE now is it ? AS you > are not just comparing the cert you are comparing on the person > knowledge/sill set which varies > hence why you see people with different certs paid varying levels. > > What it is really boils down to, is how much each company is willing to fork > out for employees and what > they bring to the company. > > So saying the juniper cert will get you 225k is WRONG. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nrf [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2001 7:26 am > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > By the same token, you could say that the Juniper JNCIE is completely > > worthless compared to the MCSE, cuz like you said there are a hell of a > > lot > > more Windows boxes to babysit than Juniper routers. Yet, the average > > JNCIE > > takes in well over $225,000 per annum, which is rather higher than the > > average MCSE, I would say (sure, some super-MCSE's make more, but I'm > > talking averages here). The reason behind this is clear to me - while > > there > > is clearly less demand for Juniper-trained people, this is easily > > compensated for by the ridiculously low supply of JNCIE's (17 at last > > count, > > 2 or 3 new ones minted every month). > > > > Or, yet another analogy. There is massive demand for low-skilled labor in > > the country, more than for CCIE's, more than for MCSE's, more than for > > anything. Flipping burgers, mopping floors, stocking shelves, bussing > > tables, picking fruit, that kind of thing. Every company could use an > > extra > > pair of hands. Sure, you can say that more companies have PC's to take > > care > > of, but not routers. But at the same time, even more companies don't have > > PC's to take care of, but have unskilled labor to do (i.e. restaurants, > > department stores, farms, supermarkets, etc.) So from the really high > > demand for this manual labor, can you assume that on average these jobs > > pay > > well (or at least higher than minimum wage)? No, of course not, and > > that's > > because of the massive amount of supply of unskilled labor out there, > > which > > keeps wages low. Almost anybody can mop a floor or bus a table. So the > > high demand is swamped by the gigantic supply of available manpower. The > > point is that you cannot look at the demand side alone, you must factor in > > the supply side as well. > > > > Now, there's no doubt, the market has crashed more for the CCIE than the > > MCSE. But even after the crash what I see is that CCIE's still pull in > > more > > than MCSE's do, and with much less competition (i.e. when my buddies apply > > for a Microsoft-admin job, there are 40-50 other dudes competing with them > > for the same job, but when I apply for a CCIE-type job, there are maybe > > only > > 2-3 candidates, and sometimes none) . This is a natural consequence that > > it > > is much harder to find a Cisco guy than a Microsoft guy, and this still > > compensates for the fewer Cisco jobs that are around. > > > > Now you might say that the demand for Cisco will continue to fall, and > > ultimately the CCIE will not mean much. Sure, that's absolutely possible. > > But then, you might also say that things might happen in the Microsoft > > world > > to make MCSE's less valuable. For example, Novell might make a comeback > > with Netware6 and eat into the market share of NT/2000. Microsoft might > > run > > into more trouble with the Justice Department, and this might hamstring > > them > > because they will be more worried about fighting in court than in > > developing > > their products, and competitors might use this valuable time to produce a > > viable competitive product (i.e. Linux with a version of Samba that is > > fully > > compatible with W2Kserver, including AD). The point is that nobody really > > knows what the future will bring, so it is difficult to make judgements > > based on what is going to happen in the future. We only know what is > > happening now, and right now, CCIE-level jobs still pay better than > > MCSE-level jobs, although admittedly the gap is not as wide as before. > > But > > the fact that the gap exists at all is prima-facie evidence that the low > > supply of CCIE's is compensating for the lower demand for them. > > > > > > > > ""Donald B Johnson jr"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > Yeah an MCSE on every corner and 1000 Windows boxes in the building > > behind. > > > I was talking to some buddies in the last big market I worked in (I live > > in > > > a poh-dunk town now) and people with current Microsoft skills are very > > much > > > in demand. > > > The infrastructure guys are hurting, remember when the market went down > > it > > > was the infrastructure, Internet, and Provider companies that > > nose-dived, > > > the mom-an-pops with 200-500Workstations, 10 servers, a couple switches, > > an > > > access router and a real non-internet related business are still going > > > strong. They need user connectivity, (not MPLS, OC-12 or the like) they > > need > > > database access, email, and system management product specialists. I > > think > > > we all got caught in the Microsoft is OK but the really cool stuff is > > Cisco, > > > but then we found out that buying pickles and everything else on the net > > > wasn't flying. Yo I heard Novell is doing some really cool stuff. > > Reminds > > me > > > of a movie where the handsome Earl Flynn was made to walk the plank by > > the > > > ugly green-toothed pirates. > > > MCSE + I - till they rip the 4.0 out of my hand. > > > CNE 4.11 - already stripped > > > CCN/DP - current > > > CCIE 6/8/02 - first attempt > > > Don > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ; > > > To: ; ; > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:45 PM > > > Subject: Fwd: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [7:3485] > > > > > > > > > > On a whim I took the CCIE written this past Saturday. Didn't pass but > > I > > > do > > > > believe the exam is far to easy. YES, to easy!! I came up a couple > > > answers > > > > short but really put no effort into preparing for the exam!! > > > > When I lost my job last year due to downsizing I weighed my options; > > MCSE > > > or > > > > CCIE...finished CCNP on April 30th so I guess that tells you my > > choice... > > > > HOWEVER, after getting the CCNP I began doing some job hunting, EVERY > > > > potential employer wanted MCSE/MCP and didn't care one way or the > > other > > > > about > > > > Cisco certs. I'm 48 yrs. old and really didn't care much about the > > MCSE > > > > because of the perceptions you stated (an MCSE on every corner), > > however > > I > > > > read several Microsoft books this summer (NT, W2K Pro, Exchange 5.5 & > > > 2000) > > > > but haven't attempted any exams. > > > > Anyway back to CCIE, aside from the CCNP studies, which I finished in > > the > > > > spring, I read mostly from the Cisco CD (Internetworking Technology > > > > Overview, > > > > Case Studies, Design etc) and Lou's Token Ring paper (Thank You Dennis > > for > > > > the TR quizzes) but DID NOT read any of the popular books i.e. Halibi, > > > > Caslow, Doyle endorsed here. I didn't read them for a reason and that > > was > > > > to > > > > see if I could pass WITHOUT their input and if I hadn't scr*&^ewed up > > a > > > > couple security questions I would have passed AND THEN I would really > > have > > > > been PISSED....having a qualification to THE LAB and basically only > > > > theoretical knowledge base. I chose the CCIE route BECAUSE it was > > > supposed > > > > to be the crown jewel of networking!!! > > > > > > > > my .02 worth > > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/1/01 12:50:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with what you are saying, however there is a difference > > between > > > > > having to work hard for something, and having it so that there are > > only > > > > 6000 > > > > > of them in the world... > > > > > The MCSE has lost respect within the IT industry, however if you > > want > > a > > > > > serious admin job, it is the most sought after certification. The > > CCIE > > > > will > > > > > always be a well respected certification. The fact that so few > > people > > > have > > > > > it is in some ways harmful because human resources departments and > > > managers > > > > > outside the tech industry haven't always heard of it. I have seen > > > people > > > > > get interviews for high level network engineering positions that > > were > > > CCNAs > > > > > before CCIEs got the interview. This is because HR has heard of the > > > CCNA > > > > > and doesn't know what a CCIE is... > > > > > I'm not saying they should water down the test, nor do I believe > > they > > > are > > > > > doing so. However, I do believe that more is better to a certain > > > degree. > > > > > 6000 to 7000 CCIEs in the world is silly. There can very easily be > > 10 > > > > times > > > > > that and the demand for certified, well trained engineers will still > > be > > > > > there ;-) Just my opinion. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Logan, Harold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:27 PM > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. I'm working towards the CCIE, and I want it to be hard. > > I > > > > > want to have to work for it. The last CCNP exam I took was the > > > > > Support/Troubleshooting exam, and I wanted my money back. The couple > > of > > > > > hours I put into studying for it were nothing but wasted time. > > > > > > > > > > In any line of work, supply and demand rule the market. The more > > IE's > > > > > there are out there, the less they'll be making. Not only that, but > > we > > > > > lowly CCNP's and CCDP's can probably expect even less. You point out > > > > > that there are way more doctors, lawyers, etc... well, there's more > > of > > a > > > > > demand for doctors and lawyers. It's a simple comparison: ask > > yourself > > > > > how many people in a given population get sick or decide to sue > > someone, > > > > > and compare that to the number of people who need a network > > designed. > > > > > > > > > > What's more, the easier any cert exam is to obtain, the worse its > > > > > reputation becomes; just ask Microsoft. It'll be years before the > > MCSE > > > > > is a respected certification again... why? Because it was too easy > > to > > > > > get. Everyone's got a story about an MCSE who talked big but > > couldn't > > > > > edit an LMHosts file, or couldn't set up a trust relationship, or > > > > > couldn't install a NIC. If the IE truly does get easier, how long > > will > > > > > it be before everyone has a similar story about a CCIE?I for one > > hope > > > > > Cisco keeps the lab challenging... I want the IE, but I want to work > > for > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > Hal Logan > > > > > Network Specialist / Adjunct Faculty > > > > > Computing and Engineering Technology > > > > > Manatee Community College > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Marshal Schoener [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:30 PM > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Subject: RE: Is the CCIE really worth it??? [3:3485] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is funny is that people are concerned with the > > > > > > possibility of 5 digit > > > > > > amounts of CCIEs at all. > > > > > > Considering there are way more doctors, lawyers, salesman, > > > > > > brokers, etc etc > > > > > > etc etc etc in just about every small city than there are > > > > > > CCIEs world wide, > > > > > > it doesn't seem something very logical to worry about. > > > > > > In fact, to a certain degree it is better off to have more > > > > > > than there are > > > > > > now for sales-marketing reasons... > > > > > > Another thing is that just because the format changes, > > > > > > doesn't mean the test > > > > > > is going to become easier. It may in fact become harder... > > > > > > > > > > > > For those of you that are really worried about this (which I > > > > > > honestly find > > > > > > hard to imagine) why don't you look into the specializations. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=21766&t=3485 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
