/me eagerly waits for raster to write a book titled "The path to
Enlightenment" :-)
On Tuesday, November 1, 2011 9:38:17 AM UTC+8, The Rasterman Carsten
Haitzler wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:19:17 -0400 Youness Alaoui
> <kaka...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Carsten Haitzler
> > <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:35:01 +0100 (CET) Vincent Torri <
> > > vto...@univ-evry.fr>
> > > said:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > we released efl 1.0 back at the start of the year...
> > > > > is there a massive rise in developers? :)
> > > >
> > > > the EFL without kick-ass apps, showing we can do more than the other
> > > > similar libraries, are useless. So it's not really surprising.
> > >
> > > sure.
> > >
> > > > Btw, there is not a massive amount of new devs / users, but some new
> ones
> > > > appear. And there more people in IRC chans (#edevev and #e.fr) the
> last
> > > > few months. Not sure if the 1.0 release (with the puplicity we tried
> to
> > > > make) and this increase of devs/users are correlated, but my opinion
> is
> > > > that it helped.
> > >
> > > you know what gets lots and lots of users and attention? going onto a
> major
> > > distribution as the primary desktop. a release wont make that happen.
> > >
> > haha, sure it won't.. cause distros will take the svn snapshot... and
> sure,
> > doing a release in itself will not bring any user or attention, it has to
> > be part of a major distribution... what's your big plan on achieving
> that?
>
> it won't happen because we are not a "sexy desktop environment". there is
> 1 big
> mistake i made back in 96/97 - it's that i wasn't all enthused by the
> "desktop
> environment" bandwagon - i thought that apps were apps and should work just
> fine under any wm. the "desktop shell" (which i didn't have a name for back
> then) was what i cared about and what i wanted e to become. e17 is very
> close
> to being that. but i made a fatal error. i didn't jump on the "DE"
> bandwagon
> and declare E's path to become a DE of its own to compete. that was a
> mistake.
> the big regret. as long as E isn't a "DE" it doesn't matter as it doesn't
> INTEGRATE to apps. Qt or GTK based apps just look odd under e. people
> don't want
> it. so unless E becomes a DE... this won't happen on any major distro.
> major
> meaning ubuntu/suse/fedora/debian levels - the DEFAULT DE they get without
> asking explicitly.
>
> > Oh and btw, I heard that if you weren't so stubborn, redhat/fedora/gnome
> > might still be using E as their primary WM.
>
> that's a nice vicious rumour either you are making up now or that has been
> spread. e only was shipped because of accident and that i worked at redhat
> and
> that i did my job. i can tell you that when i left redhat there was bad
> blood
> between me and redhat. we were not getting along well at all. partly
> because i
> was hired away for a better salary to silicon valley and redhat officially
> fired me because i had accepted an offer and was waiting for visa approvals
> that at the time were problematic and took time in the USA? lucky for me
> my new
> visa came through a few days after that (which is when i was going to put
> in my
> 1 month notice anyway). it was not possible to change companies in the US
> without re-applying for a visa... maybe you didn't know that? and all visa
> applications were a matter of public record and redhat was watching that so
> that's how they found out. so sure - use the wm written by the guy you
> fired
> because you were pissed off at him moving to a better company in a better
> location for a better salary? mmmmm yeah. sure!
>
> i see you also need a little history lesson on gnome way back when. let's
> roll
> back to 1997. i was working on enlightenment. it was up to 0.13 - it
> worked and
> looked... different. i was hired by redhat. they had this new "gnome" thing
> that miguel started. they wanted me to work on that. ok. i gave imlib a gdk
> front end to gtk/ apps could sanely use it. i argued on the gnome devel
> list
> that they needed a wm as you couldn't do a desktop without integration to
> one.
> miguel kept arguing they could do it just fine with all wm's. this went on
> for
> about 10 months. i was ready to make e do whatever gnome needed, but they
> were
> not interested, so i went my own way with e as gnome was going to work
> with al
> wm's and no integration. suddenly 10 months later it was "oh halp!!!! we
> need wm
> integration!!!!". the realization dawned finally that you DId need WM
> integration for pany elements of gnome. i sighed and went "ok - i can do
> it"
> and so i plugged extra things into e that conflicted with e's own internal
> features to make gnome happy - because that was my job. the fact is gnome
> WANTED
> the wm to be a dumb wm slave. of course that has now changed with gnome 3 -
> they finally are doing what i was always doing with e - a highly
> integrated wm.
> when i left redhat e went its own way. it was not going to be a slave wm
> for
> gnome and simply throw out its pagers, menus, wallpaper handling and pretty
> much everything else because gnome insisted on it. so gnome switched to
> sawfish
> as they didn't want to fight with e's duplicated features and
> non-gnome-like
> policies. so e wasn't going to be shipped anymore. i was fine with this as
> the
> WAY it was shipped - it was a dumb "just draw borders and move/resize
> windows"
> wm. it in no way was close to what e was able to do and what i wanted e to
> do
> and become. so as of that day since gnome just wanted a slave wm... and
> wanted
> to replace everything else with its own panels and applets, we went our
> separate
> ways. and thus e isn't shipped with gnome on redhat etc. - this happened
> not due
> to stubbornness, but because i didn't want e to be a twm. there were
> plenty of
> those around (twm, fvwm, blah blah). the downside for gnome was they didnt
> have any of the authors of these wm's helping them out and so they couldnt
> add
> the support as easily. if they just wanted borders and window
> moving/resizing
> they could use these or another wm that did want to integrate with gnome.
>
> i wanted to have gnome see why it needed to integrate heavily back in 1997.
> gnome wasn't interested in the slightest and wanted the simplest wm it
> could
> deal with. e was definitely not that wm and it was not simple. finally in
> 2011
> gnome has come around to that way of thinking with gnome 3.0 and gnome
> shell. so
> really - you can make your snide remarks, but history just has a very
> different
> story to tell.
>
> > > > About the release, I see good points and bad points in everything
> that
> > > > was said, so I can't make up my mind :)
> > >
> > > --
> > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am"
> --------------
> > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook
> > > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps
> > > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and
> simple
> > > it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > enlightenment-devel mailing list
> > > enlighten...@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook
> > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps
> > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and
> simple
> > it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > enlightenment-devel mailing list
> > enlighten...@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
> >
>
>
> --
> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------
> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> RSA® Conference 2012
> Save $700 by Nov 18
> Register now
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1
> _______________________________________________
> enlightenment-devel mailing list
> enlighten...@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSA® Conference 2012
Save $700 by Nov 18
Register now
http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1
_______________________________________________
enlightenment-devel mailing list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
