On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:19:17 -0400 Youness Alaoui > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Carsten Haitzler > > <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:35:01 +0100 (CET) Vincent Torri < > > > vto...@univ-evry.fr> > > > said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > > > > > > > > we released efl 1.0 back at the start of the year... > > > > > is there a massive rise in developers? :) > > > > > > > > the EFL without kick-ass apps, showing we can do more than the other > > > > similar libraries, are useless. So it's not really surprising. > > > > > > sure. > > > > > > > Btw, there is not a massive amount of new devs / users, but some new > ones > > > > appear. And there more people in IRC chans (#edevev and #e.fr) the > last > > > > few months. Not sure if the 1.0 release (with the puplicity we tried > to > > > > make) and this increase of devs/users are correlated, but my opinion > is > > > > that it helped. > > > > > > you know what gets lots and lots of users and attention? going onto a > major > > > distribution as the primary desktop. a release wont make that happen. > > > > > haha, sure it won't.. cause distros will take the svn snapshot... and > sure, > > doing a release in itself will not bring any user or attention, it has to > > be part of a major distribution... what's your big plan on achieving > that? > > it won't happen because we are not a "sexy desktop environment". there is > 1 big > mistake i made back in 96/97 - it's that i wasn't all enthused by the > "desktop > environment" bandwagon - i thought that apps were apps and should work just > fine under any wm. the "desktop shell" (which i didn't have a name for back > then) was what i cared about and what i wanted e to become. e17 is very > close > to being that. but i made a fatal error. i didn't jump on the "DE" > bandwagon > and declare E's path to become a DE of its own to compete. that was a > mistake. > the big regret. as long as E isn't a "DE" it doesn't matter as it doesn't > INTEGRATE to apps. Qt or GTK based apps just look odd under e. people > don't want > it. so unless E becomes a DE... this won't happen on any major distro. > major > meaning ubuntu/suse/fedora/debian levels - the DEFAULT DE they get without > asking explicitly. > Ok.. so I don't understand, you're saying you'll get devs when it shipped as the default WM for a major distro, but you say it won't happen (kind of expected), so you're basically saying that the project is already doomed? > > > Oh and btw, I heard that if you weren't so stubborn, redhat/fedora/gnome > > might still be using E as their primary WM. > > that's a nice vicious rumour either you are making up now or that has been > spread. e only was shipped because of accident and that i worked at redhat > and > that i did my job. i can tell you that when i left redhat there was bad > blood > between me and redhat. we were not getting along well at all. partly > because i > was hired away for a better salary to silicon valley and redhat officially > fired me because i had accepted an offer and was waiting for visa approvals > that at the time were problematic and took time in the USA? lucky for me > my new > visa came through a few days after that (which is when i was going to put > in my > 1 month notice anyway). it was not possible to change companies in the US > without re-applying for a visa... maybe you didn't know that? and all visa > applications were a matter of public record and redhat was watching that so > that's how they found out. so sure - use the wm written by the guy you > fired > because you were pissed off at him moving to a better company in a better > location for a better salary? mmmmm yeah. sure! > Nope, not a rumor I'm making up, but a rumor that I heard. I don't know (never bothered to ask) about any details to be honest, but the rumor was basically that indeed there was bad blood, and that you got fired. Never heard of the job/visa thing though, the rumor states that your vision and the vision of gnome/redhat/whatever was diverging.. you wanted to customize everything and they wanted very little customization but for it to do the right thing by default. Can't remember though if the rumor ended with "then you got fired" or "then you left because of this disagreement". > > i see you also need a little history lesson on gnome way back when. let's > roll > back to 1997. i was working on enlightenment. it was up to 0.13 - it > worked and > looked... different. i was hired by redhat. they had this new "gnome" thing > that miguel started. they wanted me to work on that. ok. i gave imlib a gdk > front end to gtk/ apps could sanely use it. i argued on the gnome devel > list > that they needed a wm as you couldn't do a desktop without integration to > one. > miguel kept arguing they could do it just fine with all wm's. this went on > for > about 10 months. i was ready to make e do whatever gnome needed, but they > were > not interested, so i went my own way with e as gnome was going to work > with al > wm's and no integration. suddenly 10 months later it was "oh halp!!!! we > need wm > integration!!!!". the realization dawned finally that you DId need WM > integration for pany elements of gnome. i sighed and went "ok - i can do > it" > and so i plugged extra things into e that conflicted with e's own internal > features to make gnome happy - because that was my job. the fact is gnome > WANTED > the wm to be a dumb wm slave. of course that has now changed with gnome 3 - > they finally are doing what i was always doing with e - a highly > integrated wm. > when i left redhat e went its own way. it was not going to be a slave wm > for > gnome and simply throw out its pagers, menus, wallpaper handling and pretty > much everything else because gnome insisted on it. so gnome switched to > sawfish > as they didn't want to fight with e's duplicated features and > non-gnome-like > policies. so e wasn't going to be shipped anymore. i was fine with this as > the > WAY it was shipped - it was a dumb "just draw borders and move/resize > windows" > wm. it in no way was close to what e was able to do and what i wanted e to > do > and become. so as of that day since gnome just wanted a slave wm... and > wanted > to replace everything else with its own panels and applets, we went our > separate > ways. and thus e isn't shipped with gnome on redhat etc. - this happened > not due > to stubbornness, but because i didn't want e to be a twm. there were > plenty of > those around (twm, fvwm, blah blah). the downside for gnome was they didnt > have any of the authors of these wm's helping them out and so they couldnt > add > the support as easily. if they just wanted borders and window > moving/resizing > they could use these or another wm that did want to integrate with gnome. > > i wanted to have gnome see why it needed to integrate heavily back in 1997. > gnome wasn't interested in the slightest and wanted the simplest wm it > could > deal with. e was definitely not that wm and it was not simple. finally in > 2011 > gnome has come around to that way of thinking with gnome 3.0 and gnome > shell. so > really - you can make your snide remarks, but history just has a very > different > story to tell. > Thanks for the history lesson. (and no, I'm not being sarcastic, I don't know much about the history of gnome/WM/linux/etc..) > > > > > About the release, I see good points and bad points in everything > that > > > > was said, so I can't make up my mind :) > > > > > > -- > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -------------- > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > > > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps > > > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. 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