on 8/14/00 7:43 PM, Stephen F. Bosch wrote:
> Gavin Clark wrote:
>
>>> If it bugs you, don't use it - there are plenty of other character-driven
>>> text
>>> editors available.
>>
>> this is backwards, if you know how to use vi or are willing to learn then it
>> will be a simple task for you to use it. but if you are new to linux/unix
>> (read: just about everyone on earth) vi is just too damned hard.
>
> So don't use vi
my point is that you HAVE to use it. a novice by definition does not know
how to change to something else.
If I wanted to do everything the hard way I would be using debian.
> -- but don't trash it without having a damn good reason. "It's
> too hard for me" is not a good reason.
neither is "that's the way we've always done it".
I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default.
it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during
the install.
everyone keeps saying how this has been around for 20 years, well that's
plenty of time to add a line at the top with :
'type this for help', 'do this to save', 'do this to quit'
currently vi is one of those 'you have to know the secret handshake'
programs.
>> apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull
>> the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit.
>
> There are plenty of good books available on how to use (which also means quit
> out
> of) vi. Even the most basic Unix books (like "System V Release 4: an
> Introduction")
> have a section on basic vi usage.
now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man,
but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples.
>
> I find it a little ironic that people who willingly spend hundreds of dollars
> on
> books for MS products won't bother to pick up a basic Unix text. Let's not get
> *too* too comfortable, hmn?
Actually I'm coming at this from the Mac side, where if you have to read the
manual the program sucks. ;-)
>>> Usability is an entirely subjective property.
>>
>> not true. put a group of novices in a room and measure how much work they
>> get done in an hour. with vi they'll still be scrolling through the man
>> page.
>
> Take the time to make an effort and you can be using vi within about one to
> two hours class time. This is not rocket surgery, folks.
Two hours class time to change two words in a text file? You just made my
point. The slogan "Linux, any well trained computing student can use it" is
not going to win the revolution. ;-)
> And usability doesn't mean ridiculously easy - it means effective.
It means both.
I could dial my phone by pinching wires together, it would be effective and
more flexible than buttons but guess which is more usable.
For me it comes down to this, power tools are not for children.
Gavin
