On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Gavin Clark pushed some tiny letters in this order:
>
> > -- but don't trash it without having a damn good reason. "It's
> > too hard for me" is not a good reason.
>
> neither is "that's the way we've always done it".
>
> I'm not saying get rid of it at all, just make something else the default.
> it would be an easy thing to have vi come up as a choice for experts during
> the install.
An installation choice has been the best idea to come out of this thread. This
is Mandrake after all, IMHO the distribution most suited to the widest range of
experience from newbies right up to experts.
I should probably let it be known that I too hated vi when it was used (read:
pushed avidly) as the editor in a C programming course I was doing. It's quite
embarrasing to sit in a PC laboratory listening to vi beep over and over
because I didn't understand how to change from command to an editing mode. But
over the years I've come to realise that despite it's unusual interface it is
one of the most powerful and compact editors out there.
>
> >> apparent help, no feedback, nothing. The first time I used vi I had to pull
> >> the plug on the computer because I couldn't figure out how to make it quit.
> >
> > There are plenty of good books available on how to use (which also means quit
> > out
> > of) vi. Even the most basic Unix books (like "System V Release 4: an
> > Introduction")
> > have a section on basic vi usage.
>
> now there's an idea. linux should have the command #tutorial nnn, like man,
> but it pops up a clearly written dummy's guide with lots of examples.
>
I don't think there's a tutorial command but there is a large amount of
documentation both installed and on the web. From memory, Mandrake 7.1 installs
an extremely helpful Newbies guide in /usr/doc/mandrake, a vim guide in
/usr/doc/vimguide-0.7, all the man/info pages, and if you absolutely need more
information about vi there's http://www.vim.org/, or a more general
http://www.linuxnewbie.org/
The problem isn't with the lack of documentation out there, in my experience
it's that nobody bothers to read it before running to the nearest mailing
list/newsgroup/guru/whatever.
>
> >
> > I find it a little ironic that people who willingly spend hundreds of dollars
> > on
> > books for MS products won't bother to pick up a basic Unix text. Let's not get
> > *too* too comfortable, hmn?
>
> Actually I'm coming at this from the Mac side, where if you have to read the
> manual the program sucks. ;-)
>
The reason vi does have a comprehensive manual is because it's so powerful. As
has been stated numerous times you are still free to use pico or something else
that doesn't require a manual for use.
>
> >>> Usability is an entirely subjective property.
> >>
> >> not true. put a group of novices in a room and measure how much work they
> >> get done in an hour. with vi they'll still be scrolling through the man
> >> page.
> >
> > Take the time to make an effort and you can be using vi within about one to
> > two hours class time. This is not rocket surgery, folks.
>
> Two hours class time to change two words in a text file? You just made my
> point. The slogan "Linux, any well trained computing student can use it" is
> not going to win the revolution. ;-)
Two hours? My goodness, a quick read of the guide and noting a few frequently
used commands might take 10 minutes at the most. With regard to a group of
novices, I've seen people too scared to touch a mouse because they aren't sure
what it will do let alone be brave enough to figure out that you need to press
Alt-F to access dos edit's file menu.
It's not that vi is incredibly hard to use (though memorising every single
command it has would be the mark of a true unix god) it's just that it doesn't
conform to "Microsoft's One True User Interface Vision"(tm) so newbies find it
hard to pick it up.
That's my $0.022 (inc Oz GST)
Tony
