yeah, I'd go along with most of that.. accept for a couple of points.. 1. I stand by my comment about not Judging him.. for one thing.. if you don't know the facts, how can your judgement possibly be appropriate?? (also I was referring to the war issue, not the economy, that you can judge for yourself because it speaks for itself..) He gets judged by those that know.. and unfortunately that isn't us. history will judge him as well, and that's good because history has a much better chance of knowing the relevant facts.
1.1 Your analogy is like those windows users that adversely judge Linux without having ever seen or tried it.. how can they judge something they have never known.. ??? 2. If your family was in a building or a plane or whatever that either an Iraq agent, or an Iraq sponsored terrorist took down,, you would probably find yourself at the forefront of the war crying.. We don't know all the facts.. Those who do not heed the past are destined to repeat it.. so he is at least making an effort to stop something before it happens now.. history is full of cases where no action was taken till it was too late.. who knows, he might actually stop the next 9/11, but he will get no praise for it.. but if he went and gained retribution AFTER the act had taken place, he'd be called an American hero or words to that effect.. just as he did with 9/11 and Afghanistan... He would probably rather be a hero then an unremembered nobody.. but still he is making an effort to stop something happening BEFORE it kills a heap of people.. 3. Oil, I don't recall hearing that the Oil fields that the US liberated in Desert storm are now owned by the US.... did I miss some important news flyer here??? who is running Kuwait now??? I wasn't aware it was the yanks.. The only things I think that bush has done so far: 1. Not enough explanation of his reasons for it happening now instead of 5-10 years ago to the world at large. 2. Not taking Nth Korea every bit as seriously as Iraq or explaining why they haven't. 3. Not waiting till the UN decreed it.. he should have had agents in there looking and watching for the weapons long before now if there were mass destruction weapons over there.. (after all, the US spends billions on intelligence agencies, satellites etc.. one would think they would have some idea where the weapons were moved, or at least some idea of the areas. if a satellite can read your number plate, it should have a good chance of catching a convoy of flatbed trucks or other sus looking activities, that's an extreme generalisation, but you see what I mean.) I could go on.. but you get my point, I am simply saying that unless you know what they know, you are in no position to declare them right or wrong.. end of story.. They are probably wrong,, who knows, but if they are right, should we wait till thousands or millions die before we do anything???? Lack of knowledge (ours in this case) is the biggest enemy.. I keep an open mind about this stuff till I know the facts.. I also think I have somewhat of a different perspective here.. I am of German/polish heritage, and I am not in the US.. So I am not just jumping on the war bandwagon.. but history is far to full of retaliation and not enough prevention... By the same token, this will all be history in 20 years, regardless of the outcome.. not much we say here has any bearing on it anyway... So, does anyone have something nice to say about 9.1???? rgds Frank -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of et Sent: Wednesday, 29 January 2003 11:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [expert] OT Will there be a tomorrow? Frankl says "To put it simply, we MUSTN'T judge Bush, because we have no idea what he knows.." I say very wrong statement,,, absolute power corrupts absolutely. We MUST Judge the Government continueally, if we are ever to hope to have a government "by the people, for the people and of the people". I think it was also Frankl that said "I just compared Mr. Bush's speech with the speeches of Hitler and Goering in 1939." I would love anyone that has studied Goering-Hitler to apply the same standards and study Rush Limbaugh-Bush. That is a thesis I would read and give much consideration to. LX says "cause he got well over 9 standing ovations that I could count". I could be wrong here, but in the past I had seen (some where damn if I remember where now) that an "average" for standing ovations at a State of the Union Address was 21. Damian Gatabria said "Hard to see.. the future is. Always in motion it is.... impossible to see." Yoda, read from you again, good it is. James Sparenberg says; "How about if I, an American, Vetran, and Native born Citizen. Call him the scariest thing I've ever seen." How about I, an American, Vietnam Veteran, and Native born Citizen who can trace his roots back to the pilgrims and Jamestown on one side, and the Revolutionary war on the other side, says a damn loud; "ME TOO". Just wait till it's Jeb's turn to be Prez. (2008) he is a lot smarter than Geo, and that will be even scarier. Dallam Wych says; " It costs a lot of money to keep troops stationed on foreign soil, plus it pumps a lot of money into countries that dispise you anyway." unless the US Military decides to have truly "Universal Conscription" we will always be giving the "countries that dispise you" a reason to dislike the USA, since we are sending the underclass (economicly and social skill classes) to their soil. unless people like the Bush family (and lots of other Politically connected families) are required to send their children to war and not allowed to avoid the dirty parts of war (like pulling dogtags off dead bodies or packing body bags, or marking where body parts are found with flags after a jet crash, or seeing the face of someone that is "kill or be killed" for you.) then The USA has no moral high ground to stand on, in my opinion. Praedor Tempus Atrebates said; "This is WAY offtopic and would be better suited for an alt.* newsgroup. As a US Desert Storm veteran and now reservist, I think I can speak for EVERYONE that Bush is an idiot, in fact, he truly is the most ignorant, ill-educated president that the US has EVER had and that his actions, politics, and behavior is an unfortunate expression of this fact. Lets just leave it here at what we ALL can and must agree on because these are simple, objective facts. There, all fixed. Now this topic can die." Well said Praedor. Having lived a few years "on the economy" in Germany, and having had business, personal and political problems with the Bush family, being a Democrate from Miami-Dade County Fla. and having generations long family friends and neighbors of the Reno family (Janet's dad and my mom worked together for many years), I my have a somewhat different view about this than some, and I sure love to put my useless -.02$USD view here too. altho I will NOT speak about the personal and business problems I have had with the Bush family, just leave it that the business was in real estate. and the personal stuff involved Donald Rumsfeld and Bush the senior in the time frame between 1969 and 1980 (sometime in there, that ought to be vague enough to keep me out of further trouble) IMHO, the German view of Government is much more "business like" than the American view. American Government seems to be very "idealistic" and often will pass and enforce laws that are not really "by the people, for the people and of the people" in spite of any mandate. That's why we had laws like liqueur prohibition, and the Federal criminalization of Marijuana, (even where the popular vote has "legalized marijuana" the federal government steps in and says basicly, "we don't care what laws you pass, or that over half the people in the USA have done it, we ain't gonna allow this to be legal". It is a big business, and there are lots of folks in the "inner circles" making lots of money from it being against the law. In the USA you can not just go to the Apothecary and pick up a concentrated caffeine drops to help stay awake or loose weight ($15.00USD and 10 min. time), since we want you to have to see a doctor, ($70.00 TO $100.00) then go to a drug store and pay an outrageous amount of money for a drug to loose weight or stay awake (80.00 a month), and then to find out the drug will kill you 10 years from now due to some organ it weakened. To me, this is the difference, very thrifty and business like to just get what you want with the min. of interferance, as opposed to a bunch of laws (designed to make it "safe") creating a buracracy far more expensive than just "neccessary". I think we can agree that no one on this list has the power to do anything that will either avoid or win this war. if anyone thinks that the die is not already cast, lets tlkabout it off list. On Wednesday 29 January 2003 05:17 am, Steffen Barszus wrote: > On Wednesday 29 January 2003 06:44, Lyvim Xaphir wrote: > > On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 22:49, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > > Sorry to bother you, but we were discussing whether there will be a > > > future for MandrakeSoft. > > > After tonight I wonder whether there will be a future for us all and > > > the world as we know it. > > > I listened to the US-Amercan president. > > > I'm not religious, I wish I were. This madman and the options he has > > > scare me to death. > > > > > > wobo > > First of all, this is not the right place to discuss this .. but we had > many OT-discussions here, why not these... > > > I don't take kindly to my president being called a madman. Especially > > when he is fighting a *real* madman that has slaughtered over 230,000 > > innocent kurds with mustard gas; plus done God knows what else to his > > own people; President Bush was descriptive of some of those things. > > You've got the wrong f*cking madman, pal. If he's a madman then > > everybody else in the room was also, cause he got well over 9 standing > > ovations that I could count. He also has had the highest approval > > rating of any president in US history. He also has my undivided > > attention and support. So maybe the majority of Americans are madmen > > then? Or more likely there is something seriously wrong with the German > > side of the equation. Ah, yeah, given history, I'd say definitely so. > > That comment really pisses ME off. > > > It pisses me off when other countries that have no ethics or balls to do > > the right thing in defense of innocents criticize my country and my > > president. > > WTF ....... You think war is the only way ? You think US-american have the > right for being world-police ? .... > > > Germany's histories regarding innocent life are not exactly > > something to brag about; however I'm not posting rants regarding Hitler > > and the Holocaust and 6 million Jews that were murdered. Oh yeah, and > > the fact that the US was one of the primary forces that put a stop to > > it. Madmen, eh? yeah, I can certainly talk about some madmen; like the > > ones that murder Jews. However I'm starting to understand why the > > Mandrake lists should minimize political talk; because I am extremely > > pissed right now. I suggest that this conversation go elsewhere; like > > maybe to my personal inbox, where I will be more than glad to finish > > this dance. > > How much have you understood what war means ? How much are you informed > what people here in germany think ? How much are you interested to > understand whats going on in minds here ? I would say THINK BEFORE YOU > WRITE ! > > We really need a different place for discuss this ...
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