Thanks Jan, Your message gave me some encouragement. I'll try starting the gr(polytonic) map again tomorrow, and experiment with the dead keys, but I don't have much time to lose. It took me 2 or 3 hours to do the perl script, and I have lost days experimenting with system software.
The problem I have with system software is that it usually makes a fool out of me, and I don't find the xkb intuitive at all. By intuitive, I mean it reads my mind and does what I want. I found the mono Greek map quite intuitive, but I believe I saw a program somewhere which had a Gui keyboard with all the keys marked. I was wondering, is there anyway to see the poly greek keyboard on my system? > Ceterum censeo /usr/lib/X11/locale/el_GR.UTF-8/Compose esse delendam. I was happy to find it, because it listed all the poly greek characters, but I was a bit surprised to find it in a 'locale' directory, well, in an X11/locale directory. I'd eventually like to sort out the locale and the keymap stuff, because at first glance, I don't know what one has to do with the other. Joe http://modern-greek-verbs.tripod.com/ PS I found a key conflict with my program. Sometimes I need to enclose greek text inside parentheses, like this: (εἶμεν) [damn, these windows fonts suck] In this case I don't want dasia epsilon and I don't want a space between the LP and the epsilon, so I encoded the text like this (<m>e)~ιμεν) The <m> is an undefined tag which the browser conveniently throws away, respecting the spacing, like a <b> or an <i>. I realize my program only works on text files. It won't help entering poly Greek into OO, but I do all my work in gedit. ======================= On 4/14/06, Jan Willem Stumpel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Joe Schaffner wrote: > > > Hello Thomas, > > > > It looks like we're all looking for non-standard ways to > > capture polytonic Greek in Linux. This must mean no keymap > > exists. Given one hundred years I'll figure out xkb and write > > one. > > xkb is not so difficult to figure out. At the moment you can > already enter polytonic Greek with it, and if you set the > Greek/Latin switch to a single key (I use left-windows), entering > mixed text consisting of Greek and Latin is not difficult. > > The problem is: what is, from a user point of view, the desired > behaviour of the keyboard? At the moment xkb gr(polytonic) has: > > key US GR keysym with gives > <AD11> [ [ dead_tilde α ᾶ (perispomeni) > shift<AD11> { { dead_diaeresis υ (=y) ϋ (dialytika) > altgr<AD12> « dead_macron α ᾱ (macron) > > <AD12> ] ] dead_iota α ᾳ (iota subscript) > shift<AD12> } } VoidSymbol α α (does nothing) > altgr<AD12> » dead_breve α ᾰ (breve) > > <AC10> ; ´ dead_acute α ά (tonos/oxia) > shift<AC10> : ¨ dead_horn α ἀ (psili) > altgr<AC10> ΅ [not defined] α α (does nothing) > > <AC11> ' ' dead_grave α ὰ (varia) > shift<AC11> " " dead_ogonek α ἁ (dasia) > altgr<AC11> [not defined] α α (does nothing) > > AC and AD indicate the third and fourth keyboard row from below, > respectively. The number indicates the position of the key > counting from the left, but not counting shift, capslock, tab. > > The column "US" shows which symbols are engraved on the physical > keys of a standard US PC 104 keyboard. The column "GR" shows what > is engraved on the physical keys of a Greek keyboard, according to > Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Greek). I > do not know how standard this is (in Greece). > > The keysyms dead_ogonek and dead_horn are only interpreted as > dasia and psili if the locale is el_GR.UTF-8. To use gr(polytonic) > with 'international' UTF-locales, these keysyms should be replaced > by 0x1000314 and 0x1000313 respectively (edit the file > /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/gr). > > Combinations, like ᾄ, are also possible; you have to use a fixed > order: > > -- iota subscript first > -- accent second > -- breathing third > > So for ᾧ you woud enter the keystroke sequence (keys as marked on > a US keyboard) ]["v. [The order, I admit, seems unnatural. The > order that you propose looks better. This can be changed in the > Compose file, and maybe it should be filed as a bug -- but where? > Where does the Compose file come from?] > > This works in openoffice, mozilla, and any text-mode editor you like. > > The question is, is this a workable system in practice? I am sure > any desired keyboard behaviour could easily be made to work with > the tools we have (editing the files in /etc/X11/xkb and the > Compose file). > > For instance, earlier on the list, Simos Xenitellis called > attention to a proposal for polytonic handling in Linux: > http://planet.hellug.gr/misc/polytonic/ > > This document has some keyboard combination tables of which a > small part is given below: > > tonos/oxia ΄ Dead key (;) + vowel > dialytika ¨ Dead key (:) + vowel (only υ, ι) > perispomeni ῀ Dead key ([) + vowel > iota subscript ͺ Dead key ({) + vowel > psili ᾿ Dead key (') + vowel/ρ > dasia ῾ Dead key (") + vowel/ρ > varia ` Dead key (/) + vowel > macron ¯ Dead key (]) + vowel > breve ˘ Dead key (}) + vowel > > Only a few of those are the same as what xkb now provides, but it > is easy to change /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/gr to give it this > behaviour: > > xkb_symbols "polytonic" { > > include "pc/el(extended)" > > name[Group1] = "Greece - Polytonic"; > > key <AD11> { [ dead_tilde, dead_iota ] }; > key <AD12> { [ dead_macron, dead_breve ] }; > key <AC10> { [ dead_acute, dead_diaeresis ] }; > key <AC11> { [ 0x1000313, 0x1000314 ] }; > key <AB10> { [ dead_grave, question ] }; > }; > > This of course makes the / key "dead". The AltGr key is no longer > used. The Compose file does not have to be changed, but if the > other characters mentioned in the 'proposal' would have to be > entered (koppa, digamma, etc.) a few lines should be added to it. > > Would this be easier to use than the present xkb system? I don't > know. > > Thomas Wolff suggests using 'unused' keys like F6 for oxia, etc. > Again, I think that usability is the most important criterion for > the choice. To type Greek you would have to switch your keyboard > from Latin to Greek anyway. In the 'Greek' state all keys can get > a different function. Ideally the 'Greek' keys would do similar > things to 'Latin' keys (i.e. dead tilde would become dead > perispomeni, dead acute would become dead tonos, perhaps alt-i > could become dead_iota, etc.). But there does not seem to be a > special need to look for 'unused' keys, because in 'Greek' mode, > keys can be re-used. > > Finally, would the system which is available on Windows XP > (http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/perspectives/polytonic.mspx) > be better for people who type a lot of polytonic? This may require > fewer keystrokes. However, there are a lot of altgr and > shift-altgr combinations, and it looks like it would take quite > some effort to learn them. To make this method work on Linux it > seems we would have to invent keysyms for 'combined accents' > (treating, for instance, dasia+oxia+dead_iota as 'one thing'). Or > perhaps existing keysyms could be (ab)used, like the ogonek in the > original xkb gr file. It certainly can be done (although it would > be a bit of work). Well, unless μ$ has patented this. > > > [..] The encoding always begins with the breathing (if it > > exists)followed by the accents (if they exist) followed by the > > iota subscript (if it exists). [My locale Config file at home > > has listed all the combinations in any order, but I find that > > tedious.] > > > [..] The perl script works. Here it is: [..] > > It certainly works, but it is an 'off-line' method, similar to the > beta code to utf-8 converter by Dimitri Marinakis > (http://tlgu.carmen.gr). Such utilities are useful, but wouldn't > it be better to type polytonic utf-8 directly? > > Ceterum censeo /usr/lib/X11/locale/el_GR.UTF-8/Compose esse delendam. > > Regards, Jan > http://www.jw-stumpel.nl/stestu > > >