It may not be what economists would recommend, but the weight/distance metric was put forth many decades ago by ICAO and is in use worldwide today. It does a pretty good job, and jut about every country (except a few island mini-states--and the USA) follows that method of pricing.
Bob Poole From: Tom Ronell via Mifnet <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2025 11:36 AM To: Steve McBrien via Mifnet <[email protected]> Cc: Tom Ronell <[email protected]> Subject: [Mifnet 🛰 73610] Re: Who Pays for ATC? Does it seem anachronistic if ATC services are charged by weight or by passenger/capacity when the blip handled by ATC is pretty much the same, other than when the bizjets fly faster at a higher altitude? TR _____ From: Steve McBrien via Mifnet <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> CC: Steve McBrien <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Date: 2025-08-12T15:03:26Z Subject: [Mifnet 🛰 73608] Re: Who Pays for ATC? In what feels like a million years ago I was honored to serve on Norm Minetta's panel that was looking at some of this stuff. I got to meet Bob Poole at the time, and have enjoyed reading his posts on the Mifnet since then. Back then the biz jet guys presented the same (misleading) arguments To Manetta's panel that I see here as to why they shouldn't pay the same for ATC services as the commercial guys. Saying that they don't use the same airports is incredibly misleading. As an example, the "small" airports (e.g.,Teterboro, Westchester, White Plains, Republic, and Long Island) in the NYC area use the same airspace as the big guys from LGA, JFK, and EWR. Bob P. had it right all those years ago, he still has it right. Steve McBrien On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 8:00 AM RWM--- via Mifnet <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Stirred the hornets’ nest, apparently. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2025-08-11/nbaa-disputes-nyt-video-calling-faa-funding-changes - Bob Mann On Aug 11, 2025, at 22:02, F. Scott Wilson via Mifnet <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Rob Prove it wrong. The corporate jet lobby has been a very quietly successful lobby. Scott On Aug 11, 2025, at 9:20 PM, Robert Mark <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:  I have no idea where the NY Times got its data, but some of it is definitely fluff. In the early days of the push for ATC privatization, the airlines pushed the same silly tale. "Those biz jets don't pay enough ... they're delaying our flights ... get them out of the way." BizAv pays what is required to pay. If someone wants to change the formula, then go for it. Strange that the airlines complain about bizav always getting in their way, but they've never been able to convince anyone else their data are correct. Most bizav birds don't even use the same airports the airlines do. So now, just because the NY Times makes a cute little video, citing not a single source, everyone thinks they have proof of what they always "knew" was happening anyway. Really? Give me a break. Rob Rob Mark, MRAeS, & CEO, <http://www.commavia.com> CommAvia, Creators of leading-edge media for the aviation industry. 847-864-9780 (office) 847-644-1575 (mobile) 2400 Grant Street Evanston, IL 60201 On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 6:54 PM F. Scott Wilson <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: No. Sold a lot of them. Scott … … -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: 20250507 You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: https://wardell.us/url/mifbit All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a right. 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author. 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other Mifnet members. * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: https://www.mifnet.com/ * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: https://lists.mifnet.com/ OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=leave <http://[email protected]?subject=leave> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list traffic into 1-3 messages daily. See instructions at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=help <http://[email protected]?subject=help> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: 20250507 You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: https://wardell.us/url/mifbit All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a right. 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author. 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other Mifnet members. * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: https://www.mifnet.com/ * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: https://lists.mifnet.com/ OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=leave <http://[email protected]?subject=leave> * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list traffic into 1-3 messages daily. See instructions at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=help <http://[email protected]?subject=help> * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: 20250507 You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list. The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please know that it would be greatly appreciated: https://wardell.us/url/mifbit All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies: 1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a right. 2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author. 3) The tone of discussions is collegial. 4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste. 5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other Mifnet members. * The Mifnet WEB SITE is: https://www.mifnet.com/ * To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit: https://lists.mifnet.com/ OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=leave * Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to: [email protected] * You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at: [email protected] * Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list traffic into 1-3 messages daily. See instructions at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at: https://lists.mifnet.com/ * For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: [email protected]?subject=help * View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies * View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at: https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems * View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at: https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/
