Gary - I think I agree with you. This why I keep asking whether 'subject'
might mean something more than pattern of value. My answer: yes, I think
so: a subject is a point of view, an imaginative power responsible for the
patterning of SQ (the world doesn't individuate itself). Platt, I think
that pretty much gives my view on your 'am I mistaken?' question: Yes. For
Quality doesn't cut itself up, you know. There's a smoking gun here, or a
choped bit of firewood, however you want to cohere your metaphors. The
point being: no cuts without cutters. And SQ threads of SQ patterns are cut
up bits of quality.
No?
Elephant
> From: "Gary Charpentier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:41:15 -0500
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: MD Consciousness/Awareness
>
> I find Webster's dictionary invaluable when sorting out such questions of
> language. The primary definition of consciousness does not distinguish it
> from awareness, but subsequent definitions use the word "awareness" as an
> indicator of consciousness. It has been my (subjective) experience that one
> does not have to be mentally conscious to be "aware" of something happening,
> i.e. in a dream. Conversely, one need only ride a motorcycle in heavy
> traffic to realize that the conscious state of fellow motorists in no way
> implies any real awareness of what they are doing.
>
> I want to take issue with these statements offered by Platt and Elephant:
>>> You do recognise don't you, that a pattern of DQ is a 'contradiction in
>>> terms'? Since after all DQ being continuous can't be divided into any
>>> threads to be woven and patterned together.
>>>
>>> I am glad to concur on that, but we need to take it a stage further:
>>> SUBJECTS are also patterns of value.
>
> That is such a touchy distinction! I believe, when we designate a human
> being as the SUBJECT in question, that the term "pattern of value" cannot be
> confined to the static state. While it is true that some humans seem to be
> very eager to achieve some static pattern of value and not proceed any
> further from there (mindsets), most human subjects exhibit a preference for
> dynamic quality to enable them to move beyond established static patterns
> towards something "better". But does this make our human subject a pattern
> of dynamic value? I don't think so, but I can't articulate exactly why.
> Perhaps this is where some of you folks can help me?
>
> Cheers,
> Gary
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of elephant
>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:31 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: MD atomic awareness: reprise
>>
>>
>> Good point Jonathan - you've made things clearer and brought
>> something to my
>> attention. I haven't thought very much about that way of putting it and
>> it's pretty important. 'Subject', in so far as it means 'pattern
>> of value'
>> isn't what's aware.
>>
>> But of course, I think that there is something else that
>> 'subject' can mean.
>> Consciousness? It sounds odd to say that consciousness is aware. Ok: *a*
>> consciousness is aware. But what about the introduction of numericisation
>> here ("*a*")......
>>
>> Ho hm Jonathan......
>>
>> Hm. And does RMP speak of this 'something else' too?
>>
>> -Elephant
>>
>>> From: "Jonathan B. Marder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:20:37 +0300
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: Re: MD atomic awareness: reprise
>>>
>>> Hi Elephant, Platt, Roger, Marco and all,
>>>
>>> Elephant, it's good to see you back.
>>>
>>>> PLATT:
>>>> Good. We agree that objects are patterns of value.
>>>
>>> ELEPHANT:
>>> Yes, and my 'slant' on that, if you please, is that patterns of
>> value, being
>>> patterns of SQ, are patterns of *confered* value: complexes of
>> judgements.
>>> You do recognise don't you, that a pattern of DQ is a 'contradiction in
>>> terms'? Since after all DQ being continuous can't be divided into any
>>> threads to be woven and patterned together.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am glad to concur on that, but we need to take it a stage further:
>>> SUBJECTS are also patterns of value.
>>>
>>> Since Elephant wants us to deny the property awareness to
>> objects like atoms
>>> BECAUSE they are patterns, the same reasoning should apply to
>> subjects, in
>>> short, to the whole of SQ.
>>> Once we do this, awareness ceases to exist. I regard this as a
>> step back to
>>> the world of absolute determinism.
>>>
>>> My own understanding of the MoQ is that there is nothing
>> absolute about the
>>> subject dichotomy. Subjects are also objects to the entity that does the
>>> conferring of value.
>>> Thus, the division of patterns between objects and subjects is relative.
>>> For example, one might for the sake of argument regard
>> Elephants opinion of
>>> Shakespeare as subjective, but since he has given it to us in
>> e-mail ("...I
>>> care less for Bill ..."), I can state objectively that Elephant does not
>>> particularly care for the bard.
>>>
>>> I thus think we should careful about using words like "awareness" as
>>> metaphysical cleavage terms that delineate between subjects and
>> objects. In
>>> particular, we must avoid making any such cleavage absolute.
>> That's what I've
>>> been trying to say since this "awareness" thread started.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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