Gary,
How about: good is an influence for the good.
The magnet not the magnetism.
Oh- and not sure whether the word 'pattern' belongs here, or even precisely
what you mean by it.
-E to go
> From: "Gary Charpentier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:39:21 -0500
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: MD Consciousness/Awareness
>
> Elephant,
>
> Thank you so much for responding! I have to wonder if Subject couldn't be
> more accurately described as a pattern of consciousness or awareness
> (hereafter referenced:"c/a"). This pattern of c/a then detects or discerns
> Value perhaps as a degree of Quality inherent in an object, or even in
> another subject (when, as we often do, we view a fellow subject as object).
>
> I would further suggest that DQ is a force, rather than a sort of material
> medium (in the artistic sense, i.e. paint), which influences patterns of
> value in a positive way. Much like gravity or magnetism, Dynamic Quality is
> a force or an influence for the Good. Static Quality is the pattern
> as-latched from the last application of DQ. Does this track?
>
> Gary
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of elephant
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:03 AM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: MD Consciousness/Awareness
>>
>>
>> Gary - I think I agree with you. This why I keep asking whether 'subject'
>> might mean something more than pattern of value. My answer: yes, I think
>> so: a subject is a point of view, an imaginative power responsible for the
>> patterning of SQ (the world doesn't individuate itself). Platt, I think
>> that pretty much gives my view on your 'am I mistaken?' question:
>> Yes. For
>> Quality doesn't cut itself up, you know. There's a smoking gun here, or a
>> choped bit of firewood, however you want to cohere your metaphors. The
>> point being: no cuts without cutters. And SQ threads of SQ
>> patterns are cut
>> up bits of quality.
>>
>> No?
>>
>> Elephant
>>
>>> From: "Gary Charpentier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:41:15 -0500
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: MD Consciousness/Awareness
>>>
>>> I find Webster's dictionary invaluable when sorting out such
>> questions of
>>> language. The primary definition of consciousness does not
>> distinguish it
>>> from awareness, but subsequent definitions use the word
>> "awareness" as an
>>> indicator of consciousness. It has been my (subjective)
>> experience that one
>>> does not have to be mentally conscious to be "aware" of
>> something happening,
>>> i.e. in a dream. Conversely, one need only ride a motorcycle in heavy
>>> traffic to realize that the conscious state of fellow motorists
>> in no way
>>> implies any real awareness of what they are doing.
>>>
>>> I want to take issue with these statements offered by Platt and
>> Elephant:
>>>>> You do recognise don't you, that a pattern of DQ is a
>> 'contradiction in
>>>>> terms'? Since after all DQ being continuous can't be divided into any
>>>>> threads to be woven and patterned together.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am glad to concur on that, but we need to take it a stage further:
>>>>> SUBJECTS are also patterns of value.
>>>
>>> That is such a touchy distinction! I believe, when we designate a human
>>> being as the SUBJECT in question, that the term "pattern of
>> value" cannot be
>>> confined to the static state. While it is true that some humans
>> seem to be
>>> very eager to achieve some static pattern of value and not proceed any
>>> further from there (mindsets), most human subjects exhibit a
>> preference for
>>> dynamic quality to enable them to move beyond established
>> static patterns
>>> towards something "better". But does this make our human
>> subject a pattern
>>> of dynamic value? I don't think so, but I can't articulate exactly why.
>>> Perhaps this is where some of you folks can help me?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of elephant
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 6:31 PM
>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Subject: Re: MD atomic awareness: reprise
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point Jonathan - you've made things clearer and brought
>>>> something to my
>>>> attention. I haven't thought very much about that way of
>> putting it and
>>>> it's pretty important. 'Subject', in so far as it means 'pattern
>>>> of value'
>>>> isn't what's aware.
>>>>
>>>> But of course, I think that there is something else that
>>>> 'subject' can mean.
>>>> Consciousness? It sounds odd to say that consciousness is
>> aware. Ok: *a*
>>>> consciousness is aware. But what about the introduction of
>> numericisation
>>>> here ("*a*")......
>>>>
>>>> Ho hm Jonathan......
>>>>
>>>> Hm. And does RMP speak of this 'something else' too?
>>>>
>>>> -Elephant
>>>>
>>>>> From: "Jonathan B. Marder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:20:37 +0300
>>>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: MD atomic awareness: reprise
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Elephant, Platt, Roger, Marco and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Elephant, it's good to see you back.
>>>>>
>>>>>> PLATT:
>>>>>> Good. We agree that objects are patterns of value.
>>>>>
>>>>> ELEPHANT:
>>>>> Yes, and my 'slant' on that, if you please, is that patterns of
>>>> value, being
>>>>> patterns of SQ, are patterns of *confered* value: complexes of
>>>> judgements.
>>>>> You do recognise don't you, that a pattern of DQ is a
>> 'contradiction in
>>>>> terms'? Since after all DQ being continuous can't be divided into any
>>>>> threads to be woven and patterned together.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am glad to concur on that, but we need to take it a stage further:
>>>>> SUBJECTS are also patterns of value.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since Elephant wants us to deny the property awareness to
>>>> objects like atoms
>>>>> BECAUSE they are patterns, the same reasoning should apply to
>>>> subjects, in
>>>>> short, to the whole of SQ.
>>>>> Once we do this, awareness ceases to exist. I regard this as a
>>>> step back to
>>>>> the world of absolute determinism.
>>>>>
>>>>> My own understanding of the MoQ is that there is nothing
>>>> absolute about the
>>>>> subject dichotomy. Subjects are also objects to the entity
>> that does the
>>>>> conferring of value.
>>>>> Thus, the division of patterns between objects and subjects
>> is relative.
>>>>> For example, one might for the sake of argument regard
>>>> Elephants opinion of
>>>>> Shakespeare as subjective, but since he has given it to us in
>>>> e-mail ("...I
>>>>> care less for Bill ..."), I can state objectively that
>> Elephant does not
>>>>> particularly care for the bard.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thus think we should careful about using words like "awareness" as
>>>>> metaphysical cleavage terms that delineate between subjects and
>>>> objects. In
>>>>> particular, we must avoid making any such cleavage absolute.
>>>> That's what I've
>>>>> been trying to say since this "awareness" thread started.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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