True but it's not always rent-seeking. In other professions it's about liability minimisation.
Lawyer: "So who did you get to design this bridge that collapsed?" CEO: "He seemed like a really good designer. He fitted in well with our team." Lawyer: "But was he a professional engineer?" CEO: "No but look at how fast he created designs and how good they look. All of our other designers said they loved his work. None of his other bridges have fallen down yet." Lawyer: "But did you really do all that you could to have avoided this disaster?" Lawyer: "Let's turn to why you decided not to hire a professional engineer. Why was that?" CEO: "We don't see professional certification as important. People do great work without it." etc etc. I haven't been part of the ACS for a very, very long time but I see the argument for such a body. The main problem is that it has no teeth. Without government regulation that forces membership of such a body, and the chance for it to eject people that don't do the right thing, it's hard to see the point. Our industry has a reputation of being full of cowboys and has a reputation for spectacular project failures. As such, it won't ever be considered "professional". Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com -----Original Message----- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Les Hughes Sent: Monday, 29 February 2016 11:29 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: [OT] ACS - relevant? > And I think that for a graduate visa, there is now a > requirement of this > ACS Professional Year Program Really? If so: What a scam. Rent seeking should be opposed in all of its forms. In my opinion, it's fantastic that IT (unlike most others) has been able to resist capture by some self-appointed body of "betters". Cheers Les On 29/02/16 23:10, Yann VINCENT wrote: > The ACS certification can be important/required regarding immigration > process. > For a skilled visa, I had to get a skills assessment from ACS for > instance. And I think that for a graduate visa, there is now a > requirement of this ACS Professional Year Program > <https://www.acs.org.au/news-and-media/news/2013/acs-announces-graduate-skills-assessment-application-process-changes>. > > > 2016-02-29 21:54 GMT+10:00 Tony Wright <tonyw...@gmail.com > <mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com>>: > > Point taken. I just have a problem with the whole idea that because > someone is a member of a professional body it is supposed to make > them competent. In 20 years I have only once seen a job that > specifically said ACS was desired and that was for a government job. > Which kind of means it is certainly approaching irrelevancy for me > at least. > > On 29 Feb 2016 10:05 pm, "Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)" <g...@greglow.com > <mailto:g...@greglow.com>> wrote: > > I follow what you’re saying Tony but the two concepts are > separate. ____ > > __ __ > > You are describing what you are looking for in an employee. You > might consider that “professionalism” but you are not actually > describing what most other industries would describe as > professionalism. In most industries, professionalism is about a > formal agreement to adhere to a code of ethics, being qualified > in the first place, maintaining appropriate certifications, > carrying out ongoing learning, etc. And, more importantly, > ejection from the profession if you don’t do what’s > required.____ > > __ __ > > It’s just that the IT industry places more value on a perceived > ability to get something done. ____ > > __ __ > > There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but people that we > consider to be IT professionals won’t ever be regarded as such > by most of the community, and we’ll continue to see people that > lurch from one disaster to the next with impunity. It’s worth > considering that very few other professions would tolerate the > failure rate that’s associated with IT projects.____ > > __ __ > > Regards,____ > > __ __ > > Greg____ > > __ __ > > Dr Greg Low____ > > __ __ > > 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775 <tel:%281300%20775%20775>) office | +61 > 419201410 <tel:%2B61%20419201410> mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 > <tel:%2B61%203%208676%204913> fax ____ > > SQL Down Under| Web: > www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/>____ > > __ __ > > *From:*ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com > <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> > [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com > <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright > *Sent:* Monday, 29 February 2016 9:54 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com > <mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> > *Subject:* Re: [OT] ACS - relevant?____ > > __ __ > > I somehow don't think being a member of the ACS suddenly gives > you any more professionalism than any other person in the IT > sector. In fact, having read resumes of hundreds of people I > think I've only ever seen one that said they were a member of > the ACS. But alas, that person did not have the skills we > needed, so we had to pass. We were really looking for people who > were emmersed in the technology and the best evidence of that > was evidence of decent projects they'd worked on, attendance and > speaking at user group meetings, and evidence of leadership. > Certifications, sure, but not people who only knew how to do > certs. And people with personality and the right attitude. > ____ > > T.____ > > On 29 Feb 2016 8:12 pm, "Peter Griffith" > <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au <mailto:pe...@gui-visuals.com.au>> > wrote:____ > > Well put David B____ > > __ __ > > So I guess that means that IT cannot be regarded as a > profession ____ > > __ __ > > Bourne out by industry who seem more interested in > experience rather than adherance to a professional code of > ethics, code of conduct, code of practice.____ > > __ __ > > Is it unethical then for those working in IT to portray > themselves as professionals?.____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > On 29 February 2016 at 17:06, David Burstin > <david.burs...@gmail.com <mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>> > wrote:____ > > Some points on relevance...____ > > __ __ > > I used to be an accountant. There are many professional > bodies that cover accountants, each being relevant only > to the area of accounting they specialize in. CPAs are > not the same as Chartered Accountants, and it is natural > and obvious as an accountant which body you should > belong to based on the type of work you do. For example, > a public accountant in a suburban practice doing > individual, small trust and small company returns would > be a CPA, not a Chartered Accountant. ____ > > __ __ > > All of the questions you asked have different answers > based on which body you belong to as an > accountant.____ > > __ __ > > So, who does the ACS represent? Software engineers? > Hardware engineers? Database administrators? And within > these, there are massive subsets, each with vastly > different and perhaps even opposing codes of conduct and > practice. Would the ACS promote "break-nothing" (eg if > you worked at a financial institution), or > "break-everything" if you worked at Facebook?____ > > __ __ > > I am not and never have been a member of the ACS. I > looked at it but could never see the relevance. The only > advantage was having a few letters at the end of my name > that no one seemed to care about. So instead I got some > other letters that slightly more (and I do mean slightly > more) people cared about (MCSD, MCT).____ > > __ __ > > The questions that you ask are spot-on for a > representative professional body. I just don't feel that > they apply to the ACS because who exactly does it > represent - and if the answer is "computer > professionals" then that is so vague as to be > meaningless.____ > > __ __ > > That's my 2c.____ > > __ __ > > On 29 February 2016 at 17:21, Peter Griffith > <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au > <mailto:pe...@gui-visuals.com.au>> wrote:____ > > Cuppla more questions on relevance____ > > __ __ > > Do you subscribe to a professional code of ethics, > code of conduct, code of practice?____ > > /./Do you follow an on-going, coherent professional > education process.?____ > > Are you accredited by any relevant, recognised, > independent body, or by a Local, State or Federal > government authority.?____ > > __ __ > > On 29 February 2016 at 16:30, Peter Griffith > <pe...@gui-visuals.com.au > <mailto:pe...@gui-visuals.com.au>> wrote:____ > > Do you belong to a professional body?____ > > __ __ > > On 29 February 2016 at 16:27, David Apelt > <d...@signmanager.com.au > <mailto:d...@signmanager.com.au>> wrote:____ > > Yes____ > > ____ > > *From:*ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com > <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> > [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com > <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] *On > Behalf Of *Peter Griffith > *Sent:* Monday, 29 February 2016 4:43 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com > <mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> > *Subject:* Re: [OT] ACS - relevant?____ > > ____ > > David, do you consider yourself to be an IT > Professional?____ > > ____ > > On 29 February 2016 at 15:35, DotNet Dude > <adotnetd...@gmail.com > <mailto:adotnetd...@gmail.com>> wrote:____ > > Haven''t even heard ACS since like 2000. > Never comes up in interviews or any > conversation at all from my > experience.____ > > ____ > > On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:50 PM, David > Apelt <d...@signmanager.com.au > <mailto:d...@signmanager.com.au>> > wrote:____ > > The only time I ever hear of the ASC > (Australian Computer Society) is the > punch line in bad IT jokes.____ > > ____ > > But last night I had a Pakistani > taxi driver who had just got his > masters in IT. He spoke with > enthusiasm about the ASC and how he > was going to be paying them $12500 > over the next year so that he could > be accredited in IT. (!!)____ > > ____ > > I just want to test the waters here; > are the ASC relevant? Are they doing > a good job? Does anyone ask for ACS > accreditation during interviews? > ____ > > ____ > > I am in Melbourne for work at the > moment. Maybe it is a regional > thing?____ > > ____ > > ____ > > ____ > > ____ > > > > ____ > > ____ > > -- ____ > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 <tel:0408%20832%20891> > ____ > > > > ____ > > __ __ > > -- ____ > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 <tel:0408%20832%20891> ____ > > > > ____ > > __ __ > > -- ____ > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 <tel:0408%20832%20891> ____ > > __ __ > > > > ____ > > __ __ > > -- ____ > > Peter Griffith CP > PH: 0408 832 891 <tel:0408%20832%20891> ____ > > > > > -- > > Yann VINCENT > > Unit 22, 159 Merthyr Road > > New Farm, QLD, 4005 > > Email: y...@yvincent.com <mailto:y...@yvincent.com> > > Mobile: 0424 587 150
