-----
/ o o \
====OO=====OO===
http://pnews.org/
Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---
Quite frankly, if you are serious about what you have been posting
and are not just taking the mickey, I just don't have the energy to
overcome such a different view. Your statements seem to be confusing
the abuses perpetrated by people who wish to justify their actions by
a cloak of Christianity (often in a genuine belief that they are
acting as Christians) with what the Christian bible (the New
Testament - the Old Testament is not Christ's message because it
comprises pre-Christ values/practises) alleges Christ's message is.
I am not a professing Christian nor am I American - I am however
aware of what is in the Christina bible and I am very well aware of
what has been done purportedly in Christ's name by people who have
perverted the message. I am also aware of what has been done
allegedly in the name of other religions.
I do not know where you are getting your information from but if what
you say reflects that information may I respectfully suggest that you
broaden the base of your information. I do not propose to enter
arguments about but, for example, to say that Christianity was a
Roman device to enslave/control people (or words to that effect)
really suggests that your information comes from a source that is
really erroneous.
But don't take my word for it - go to sources outside those you have
obviously been solely relying upon (even if that takes you outside
your zone of comfort) and see what other information is out
there. My understanding was that the Christians were persecuted by
the Romans for many reasons to do with the dynamics of maintaining a
multi-racial empire. I also understand that the Jews regarded the
Christians as being (initially) a Jewish sect which did not comply
with the norms that the Jewish establishment thought Jewish sects
should comply - one being that it was a bit promiscuous in that it
accepted Gentiles equally with Jews.
As for it being synonymous with slavery - as I said many people
claiming Christian cover have done things not countenanced by the
message that the Christian bible says Christ gave. Anyway, I am not
going to enter what is likely to be a tedious debate trying to get
you to even contemplate things that, from the tenor of your postings
to date, you are unlikely to consider.
Garth Cartledge
At 05:06 AM 9/04/2006, you wrote:
> -----
> / o o \
>====OO=====OO===
> http://pnews.org/
>Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
>|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>
>
>---
>
>Show me where I am wrong...
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Garth Cartledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 7:36 PM
>Subject: [pnews-views] Re: [pnews-news] Islam Means Death to Infidels
>
>
> > -----
> > / o o \
> > ====OO=====OO===
> > http://pnews.org/
> > Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
> > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Keep this up. It is lovely. I love a good fantasy
> >
> > Garth Cartledge
> >
> > At 12:46 AM 8/04/2006, you wrote:
> >
> > > -----
> > > / o o \
> > >====OO=====OO===
> > > http://pnews.org/
> > >Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
> > >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> > >
> > >
> > >---
> > >
> > >The American civil war converted chattel property slaves to public
>property
> > >slaves, and thus made slaves of all blacks as a class to all whites as a
> > >class, no matter where they resided. The exact same thing happened upon
>the
> > >establishment of christrianity early in the fourth century by Constantine
>I.
> > >Proof? You are surrounded by it. Look at the christian 'work ethic' and
> > >the "camel through the eye of the needle' bit. Both support slavery
>through
> > >the enforcement of poverty and protection of the rich from competition by
> > >the poor, and protection of the profits made for them by the poor. All of
> > >the blind obedience crap preached from the pulpits every day is just more
> > >slave control stuff. Only gunpowder ever overcame it.
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Hank Roth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <[email protected]>
> > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 11:05 PM
> > >Subject: [pnews-views] Re: [pnews-news] Islam Means Death to Infidels
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > / o o \
> > > > ====OO=====OO===
> > > > http://pnews.org/
> > > > Progressive News & Views (since 1982)
> > > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Slavery and Freedom from Want..
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy your fantasy Charles. Connecting the reason for Christianity to
> > >Roman
> > > > culture and slavery as you have done is a stretch of imagination which
> > >goes
> > > > beyond sane analysis. I've never seen anything from you that even
> > >resembles
> > > > decent logic - and no citations, no proof, no comparative analysis of
>any
> > >kind.
> > > > Your level of discourse is sinking into the abyss. If you want to tie
> > >these
> > > > concepts to metaphors, do so, but say so - otherwise, you are
>developing
> > >your
> > > > own terms and they just don't work because they are not true because
>they
> > > > cannot be proved/have not been proved.
> > > >
> > > > With any predicate hypothesis you need to lay down your theory and
>then
> > >develop
> > > > it subject to challenge. You have yet to do that. I'm waiting...
> > > >
> > > > As for real slavery, that is what goes on in some parts of the Sudan
>and
> > > > elsewhere in Africa today. As for real freedom, that means economic
> > >freedom as
> > > > well as freedom to choose, to make choices. And to make choices that
>will
> > >not
> > > > be harmful to others.
> > > >
> > > > Ideas about freedom suffused American culture especially after the
>Civil
> > >War
> > > > for a time, a short time actually - during Reconstruction - which
>ended
> > >about
> > > > 12 years after it was started and it took almost a hundred years to
>return
> > >to
> > > > ideas of "real" freedom of equal rights, privileges and
>opportunities -
> > >which
> > > > included freeing once again those who were once slaves and the
>children of
> > > > slaves --- this time however with freedom (but not yet full freedom)
>to
> > >choose
> > > > and participate in the political process and enjoy the same rights and
>the
> > >same
> > > > drinking fountains and the same bathrooms, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately the language (how it is applied and how and what it is
> > >assumed to
> > > > include) of freedom alters its meaning - as does literal "slavery" and
> > > > metaphorical slavery - through periods in history as it evolves to be
>more
> > > > inclusive or skips back to be less so.
> > > >
> > > > An example was when the "freedom train" in 48 after the war, travelled
> > > > this country to demonstrate how this country held freedom up as our
> > > > highest standard, and demonstrate the difference between American
>freedom
> > > > and Nazism, yet visits to the train were interrupted for a time when
>it
> > > > seemed they might have to integrate the viewing of the exhibits.
>Visits
> > > > were cancelled in Memphis, TN and Birmingham, AL because city fathers
> > > > insisted there that black and white could not go on the train at the
>same
> > > > time - but the train did visit with incident about 45 other American
> > > > cities.
> > > >
> > > > It is an interesting time in our history - and illustrative of the
> > > > problems with freedom and the opposition to black equality -
>especially
> > > > when German POWS during WWII received better treatment than did
>American
> > > > solders of color.
> > > >
> > > > "Free" enterprise also took on the meaning - to
> > > > maintain the economic and social "status quo."
> > > >
> > > > During the Cold War freedom took on new meaning when Truman declared
>his
> > > > doctrine and people were literally being enslaved in the gulags of the
> > > > Soviet Union. The Cold War changed freedom's meaning with the
> > > > "Communist World" against the "Free World."
> > > >
> > > > No words are more central to America than "freedom" along with
>"liberty."
> > > > The war in Iraq has been called by the Bush administration "operation
> > > > Iraqi Freedom." - skewed as that might be. The Civil War was fought,
>said
> > > > Lincoln to bring about a "new birth of freedom" (from slavery).
> > > >
> > > > Hank
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Charles W. Smith wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Using an integration of the best historical evidence available,
> > >christianity
> > > > > seems to have been invented to be the protector of Roman styled
> > >capitalism,
> > > > > and the perpetuator of the Roman institution of human slavery. No
>new
> > > > > invention of 'terms' is necessary to observe this in history. That
> > > > > definition of capitalism is the oldest definition in the world, it
>is
> > >the
> > > > > original definition from the late Grecian period that led into the
> > >formation
> > > > > of Rome. Capitalists still prefer slaves to provide them their
>wealth
> > >to
> > > > > this day. Thus their flight from the USA to the places of cheapest
> > >labor.
> > > > > .
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ---
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Please...... AS a card-carrying ex-communist, you are telling me
>what
> > > > >> capitalism is?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> And Christianity is most definitely not slavery in the literal
>sense.
> > > > >> Capitalism is a systemically flawed economic system, but it is not
> > > > >> the reason why people are Christians. But that topic has also been
> > >covered
> > > > >> here before. If you want to try to become a philosopher, try not to
> > >invent
> > > > >> new terms and definitions.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The subject you responded to had nothing to do with the tangent you
>got
> > > > >> yourself trapped in. Islam means death to infidels. Try to stay on
> > >topic.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hank
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> > > > M A I L I N G L I S T S
> > > > (1) pnews-news - NEWS mailing list - (text only)
> > > > Send "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subject
> > > > ----> pnews-news-request(at)inyourface.info
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > (2) pnews-views - VIEWS mailing list- (text only)
> > > > OPEN discussion - "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subj
> > > > Send to ------> pnews-views-request(at)inyourface.info
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > (3) fightback - articles and pointers distribution list
> > > > (html/text) - expert informed opin., credentialed authors
> > > > ----> http://pnews.org/dada/
> > > > ========================================================
> > > > (4) ATTN: WEBMASTERS - Link Exchange/improve site rank
> > > > ----> links_only-subscribe(at)googlegroups.com - or, go to:
> > > > -----> http://groups.google.com/group/Links_Only
> > > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> > > M A I L I N G L I S T S
> > >(1) pnews-news - NEWS mailing list - (text only)
> > > Send "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subject
> > > ----> pnews-news-request(at)inyourface.info
> > >=======================================================
> > >(2) pnews-views - VIEWS mailing list- (text only)
> > >OPEN discussion - "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subj
> > > Send to ------> pnews-views-request(at)inyourface.info
> > >=======================================================
> > >(3) fightback - articles and pointers distribution list
> > >(html/text) - expert informed opin., credentialed authors
> > > ----> http://pnews.org/dada/
> > >========================================================
> > >(4) ATTN: WEBMASTERS - Link Exchange/improve site rank
> > >----> links_only-subscribe(at)googlegroups.com - or, go to:
> > >-----> http://groups.google.com/group/Links_Only
> > >|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> >
> > Garth Cartledge
> >
> > " Despotism sits nowhere so secure as under the effigy and ensigns of
> > Freedom", From Imaginary Conversations of Greeks and Romans (1853) by
> > Walter Savage Landor 1775-1864
> >
> > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> > M A I L I N G L I S T S
> > (1) pnews-news - NEWS mailing list - (text only)
> > Send "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subject
> > ----> pnews-news-request(at)inyourface.info
> > =======================================================
> > (2) pnews-views - VIEWS mailing list- (text only)
> > OPEN discussion - "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subj
> > Send to ------> pnews-views-request(at)inyourface.info
> > =======================================================
> > (3) fightback - articles and pointers distribution list
> > (html/text) - expert informed opin., credentialed authors
> > ----> http://pnews.org/dada/
> > ========================================================
> > (4) ATTN: WEBMASTERS - Link Exchange/improve site rank
> > ----> links_only-subscribe(at)googlegroups.com - or, go to:
> > -----> http://groups.google.com/group/Links_Only
> > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> >
> >
>
>
>|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> M A I L I N G L I S T S
>(1) pnews-news - NEWS mailing list - (text only)
> Send "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subject
> ----> pnews-news-request(at)inyourface.info
>=======================================================
>(2) pnews-views - VIEWS mailing list- (text only)
>OPEN discussion - "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subj
> Send to ------> pnews-views-request(at)inyourface.info
>=======================================================
>(3) fightback - articles and pointers distribution list
>(html/text) - expert informed opin., credentialed authors
> ----> http://pnews.org/dada/
>========================================================
>(4) ATTN: WEBMASTERS - Link Exchange/improve site rank
>----> links_only-subscribe(at)googlegroups.com - or, go to:
>-----> http://groups.google.com/group/Links_Only
>|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Garth Cartledge
" Despotism sits nowhere so secure as under the effigy and ensigns of
Freedom", From Imaginary Conversations of Greeks and Romans (1853) by
Walter Savage Landor 1775-1864
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
M A I L I N G L I S T S
(1) pnews-news - NEWS mailing list - (text only)
Send "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subject
----> pnews-news-request(at)inyourface.info
=======================================================
(2) pnews-views - VIEWS mailing list- (text only)
OPEN discussion - "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" as subj
Send to ------> pnews-views-request(at)inyourface.info
=======================================================
(3) fightback - articles and pointers distribution list
(html/text) - expert informed opin., credentialed authors
----> http://pnews.org/dada/
========================================================
(4) ATTN: WEBMASTERS - Link Exchange/improve site rank
----> links_only-subscribe(at)googlegroups.com - or, go to:
-----> http://groups.google.com/group/Links_Only
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
